[BO9S] Playing a Crusader; assistance appreciated

[Synchronicity]

A friend of mine's going to be starting up a D&D game soon, and I'm looking for a fun class to play. The game in question should hopefully be a strongly roleplayed game with bursts of extreme violence. I'm feeling in the mood for a front-line type (read: Full BAB), but was shrugging through most of the options until I hit Crusader. It looks like an interesting, flavorful class, but I'm worried about balance issues. I've read a lot of topics on forums like this one muttering about the overpoweredness of the Book of Nine Swords, and I don't want to mess with the game by bringing in a super-powered character.

In case it's relevant, or people prefer dealing with a specific build rather than the Crusader as a whole, the build is likely to be a lawful evil* human Crusader of 2nd or 3rd level (to be determined), using a 32 pt buy. The plan is to go for heavy armour, heavy shield, and heavy mace. (Maybe I can create a 'Heavy' feat, that gives bonuses when using things with 'heavy' in their titles? ) I'm intending to be extremly shy of White Raven maneuvers, as I have heard horror stories of the things they can do.

Having established that, I have the following questions.
- In your opinion, is Crusader overpowered (or at least extremly strong) compared to the front-line base classes from the PHB?
- If not, what're the balancing factors?
- If it is overpowered, are there any ways that you think the class could be limited to bring it more into line with PHB classes, while still retaining its flavour?
-Is there anything present in my build that you believe will cause problems?
-Do you have any other warnings or advice?

And that's that. Thanks for taking the time to read this, and preemptive thanks for any advice.

*I should note that it's not an 'evil' game; I just want to try and play an evil character who actually functions in a group dynamic, and isn't a complete ass. We shall see how well this works.

 

[brehobit]

of White Raven maneuvers, as I have heard horror stories of the things they can do.

Having established that, I have the following questions.
- In your opinion, is Crusader overpowered (or at least extremly strong) compared to the front-line base classes from the PHB?

Very strong for certain.

- If not, what're the balancing factors?
- If it is overpowered, are there any ways that you think the class could be limited to bring it more into line with PHB classes, while still retaining its flavour?

Frankly, I'd not worry about it overly much especially if no one else is playing a full-BAB PHB class. It is more powerful, but not crazy powerful. And you can reign it in by mult-classing to something (cleric is an obvious "reasonable" gimp)

-Is there anything present in my build that you believe will cause problems?
-Do you have any other warnings or advice?

You MUST use cards for your manouvers so you don't slow the whole game down. I now require the swordsage in my game to use cards (just to speed things up a bit) but for a crusader it is a must. WoTC has some cards on-line (very nice!) or you can make your own.

On roleplaying, a LE crusader is just begging to be a Wes Jas follower and take a cleric level or two and head toward Ruby Knight Inquisitor. I'd _love_ to play such a character (partly for the rules stuff, but mostly I think a LE Wes Jas crusader/cleric would be a blast to play!)

 

[I'm Cleo]

The Crusader is a tremendously fun class to play, but the mechanics involved (the delayed damage pool; the random granting of maneuvers) require a lot of bookkeeping. As brehobit suggested, cards for your maneuvers would be a good idea. It's also brilliantly designed -- every level you "get" something new, whether it's a new level of maneuvers, a new maximum for your delayed damage pool, a smite, or just switching out an old maneuver for a new one.

Regarding how it stacks up with the PHB front-line classes, it's better, but I wouldn't say it's overpowered. The Barbarian is still going to outmove and outdamage you. The Fighter might have a few more feat tricks up his sleeve at early levels. And by mid levels the Cleric and Druid are the best front-line classes in the PHB anyway.

If you center on Devoted Spirit maneuvers (leaving to the side the White Raven ones), you're going to be extremely hard to kill. A high AC (from all your "heavy" items), all sorts of healing options (Martial Spirit stance, Crusader's Strike), and the delayed damage pool will make you quite a tank. And if you throw in some Stone Dragon maneuvers, you'll have some damage potential as well.

In terms of perceived "balance", Crusaders are hard to kill and help the party. Lots of their maneuvers help others. Your character might be great, but since it helps the other players too, it won't seem as if you're outshining them.

If you do decide to take levels in Ruby Knight Vindicator, I'd warn you that it's not going to "gimp" your guy. If anything, adding Cleric casting to an already-powerful tank with its own abilities will make it more powerful. If you don't want to outshine other front liners too much, take straight Crusader.

I'm Cleo!

 

[kigmatzomat]

My personal opinion is that a Crusader is a decent, if somewhat stronger, alternative to a paladin. It is a little bit more flexible in some regards (maneuvers constantly available) and a little less in others (no access to a fairly useful spell list). The lack of the troublesome Code is a good thing for party integration but makes the Crusader a bit stronger. (BTW: I like Paladins as both a player and DM and have had several over the decades but at times it does result in people at loggerhead.)

I agree that WRT as a specific maneuver is troublesome. The rest of the WR maneuvers are worth considering just because they do integrate you into a group both because it makes you valuable to the others but it helps your LE character see the value in having others around.

 

[satori01]

The Crusader can be an effective battle leader...most of the White Raven Maneuvers are not that bad, it is just some of the higher level ones can be used to disastrous effects, especially with lots of followers/cohorts around. The Power Level is less than what people complain about, after all do you really want the Party Wizard doing his Braveheart imprsonation across the battle field?

Most of the Crusader curative strikes require the opponent to have an alignment component in opposition to the Crusader... thus if you are fighting Hobgoblins, your effectiveness is going to go way down. Devoted Spirit has some great little cure spells.

Crusader is a good addition to a party and would not overshadow other warriors.

 

[starwed]

One "problem" I noticed with a crusader is that although the power level isn't excessive, it's got way more flash than other combat classes.

This can make it seem more powerful, but if you actually look at the damage output it's not as high as it sometimes seems. (Because you seldom make full attacks.) I almost wish they'd made the ToB classes a little less powerful; they're fun enough to play they don't need the extra incentive of also being excellent melee combatants. And I've heard of too many DM's disallowing them because they view the book as overpowered.

 

[blargney the second]

I'm playing a crusader right now, and it's wicked fun. The barbarian, cleric, and wizard all routinely outdamage him, but he makes for a great tank.

By they way, you're going to want a fair amount of space at the table. You'll need room for your maneuver cards, as well as something to track your delayed damage pool.

 

[satori01]

I almost wish they'd made the ToB classes a little less powerful; they're fun enough to play they don't need the extra incentive of also being excellent melee combatants. And I've heard of too many DM's disallowing them because they view the book as overpowered.

From personal experience the Swordsage class has seemed balanced with other warrior types. Typically I would say ToB classes often trade damage output for nifty abilities. At high levels the iterative attacks are extremely valuable.

 

[Mort]

A friend of mine's going to be starting up a D&D game soon, and I'm looking for a fun class to play. The game in question should hopefully be a strongly roleplayed game with bursts of extreme violence. I'm feeling in the mood for a front-line type (read: Full BAB), but was shrugging through most of the options until I hit Crusader. It looks like an interesting, flavorful class, but I'm worried about balance issues. I've read a lot of topics on forums like this one muttering about the overpoweredness of the Book of Nine Swords, and I don't want to mess with the game by bringing in a super-powered character.

Contrary to the hype Bo9S classes did not seem overpowered in play. They just have a lot of flash which makes them seem powerful - I ran the three classes through the Red Hand of Doom along with a duskblade (PHB II) and the duskblade outshone them all - except the crusader.

In case it's relevant, or people prefer dealing with a specific build rather than the Crusader as a whole, the build is likely to be a lawful evil* human Crusader of 2nd or 3rd level (to be determined), using a 32 pt buy. The plan is to go for heavy armour, heavy shield, and heavy mace. (Maybe I can create a 'Heavy' feat, that gives bonuses when using things with 'heavy' in their titles? ) I'm intending to be extremly shy of White Raven maneuvers, as I have heard horror stories of the things they can do.

Most of the white raven manuevers are fine. Even the charge ones everyone raves about are not as powerful as they look - and frankly if you can get a group to coordinate well enough to use them to good effect - more power to you, that kind of teamwork should be encouraged.

White raven tactics cane be broken (especially since custserv says the crusader can apply it to himself) and it is simply wrong that a 3rd level manuever is better in most ways than a 9th level manuever (time stands still) - I would houserule it that the target affected cannot take more actions than they otherwise could (so the manuever is a tactical manuever good for flanking etc., not a timewarp).

Having established that, I have the following questions.
In your opinion, is Crusader overpowered (or at least extremly strong) compared to the front-line base classes from the PHB?

the crusader is strong but an optimized fighter, barbarian or paladin can keep up.

- - If not, what're the balancing factors?

1. Multi attribute dependancy
2. Most manuevers require a standard action so no full attack.
probably others

- -Is there anything present in my build that you believe will cause problems?

don't see anything.

- Do you have any other warnings or advice?

As stated in posts above, the crusader is very bookkeeping heavy - manuever cards are an absolute must. I printed them up for the group (used card stock paper to make them durable) and the mechanics became easy.

 

[brehobit]

Contrary to the hype Bo9S classes did not seem overpowered in play. They just have a lot of flash which makes them seem powerful - I ran the three classes through the Red Hand of Doom along with a duskblade (PHB II) and the duskblade outshone them all - except the crusader.

I've not seen too many people claim the duskblade is underpowered. I'm running 4 through the RoHD including a barb/swordsage and a ranger. Once they hit 6th level the ranger became only slightly weaker than the swordsage. Before that he was a lot weaker (and that's with a +1 holy sword in his hands).

Most of the white raven manuevers are fine. Even the charge ones everyone raves about are not as powerful as they look - and frankly if you can get a group to coordinate well enough to use them to good effect - more power to you, that kind of teamwork should be encouraged.

White raven tactics cane be broken (especially since custserv says the crusader can apply it to himself) and it is simply wrong that a 3rd level manuever is better in most ways than a 9th level manuever (time stands still) - I would houserule it that the target affected cannot take more actions than they otherwise could (so the manuever is a tactical manuever good for flanking etc., not a timewarp).

Agreed almost across the board. (I think WRT isn't _that_ bad. Powerful yes, but probably a good level 5 boost.)

the crusader is strong but an optimized fighter, barbarian or paladin can keep up.
1. Multi attribute dependancy
2. Most manuevers require a standard action so no full attack.
probably others

I'll disagree with #1. Chr only matters for the crusader for one thing, a bonus to will saves. That's it. MAD is very minor at best. There is certainly no really need to go above a 14 in a 32-point game, and I've yet to see one with a CHR over 12.

The other is 100% right. But, and it's a big but, it depends wildly on the game. I'm finding that the ranger, with his 4 attacks in a full-attack, rarely gets to make a full attack. Baddies drop (either before the full attack or during it) or move, or the ranger is too hurt to stay. It may be because RHoD has a lot of mass battles and highly mobile opponents (fliers). I expect there will be some battles where this isn't true and the ranger will shine.

My experience is that at lower levels (pre 6) the Bo9S classes are significantly more powerful than the core warriors: the standard action limitation doesn't matter. I'm looking forward to seeing how that changes.

Oh, and some of the stances are crazy powerful in certain games. Outdoor encounters tend to have difficulty terrain. And so I find that in RHoD the stance that lets you move freely in difficult terrain AND get +2 to attack anyone in difficult terrain is pretty broken.

As stated in posts above, the crusader is very bookkeeping heavy - manuever cards are an absolute must. I printed them up for the group (used card stock paper to make them durable) and the mechanics became easy.

The cardstock seems like a wonderful idea...

Mark