[BO9S] Playing a Crusader; assistance appreciated

[The Souljourner]

I think as long as you don't *try* to break them and work in the spirit of the rules, they're fine as is. If you try to rules lawyer and see different behaviors in the wording of abilities and do stuff that any sane DM wouldn't let you do, then sure, they can be broken.

If you never try to break a class, they'll never be broken, no matter how overpowered they may be.

-Nate

 

[blargney the second]

I think as long as you don't *try* to break them and work in the spirit of the rules, they're fine as is. If you try to rules lawyer and see different behaviors in the wording of abilities and do stuff that any sane DM wouldn't let you do, then sure, they can be broken.

I agree. Right before our last game, I sat down with my DM and we hammered out the details of how the various crusader mechanisms were going to work in our game. Two big decisions came out of it:

1) The recovery mechanism resets *all* maneuvers at the end of each cycle.
2) White Raven Strike Tactics is not available in this campaign. (We ended up comparing it to the 3.0 haste, and WRT came out on top. That's not a good sign.)

-blarg

 

[Mort]

I agree. Right before our last game, I sat down with my DM and we hammered out the details of how the various crusader mechanisms were going to work in our game. Two big decisions came out of it:

1) The recovery mechanism resets *all* maneuvers at the end of each cycle.
2) White Raven Strike is not available in this campaign. (We ended up comparing it to the 3.0 haste, and WRS came out on top. That's not a good sign.)

-blarg

Do you mean white raven tactics? white raven strike is ok, but not spectacular for a 4th level manuever (standard action, 4d6 damage target flat footed until it acts).

 

[blargney the second]

Whoops, my bad. You're absolutely right - the Strike is totally fine, and a lot of fun. Your ninjae will love you for it.

 

[brehobit]

I'd claim white Raven tactics is likely ok as long as you can't target yourself. It is powerful, but so is the whole book

 

[Mort]

I'd claim white Raven tactics is likely ok as long as you can't target yourself. It is powerful, but so is the whole book

it's a 3rd level manuever and as good as time stands still (a 9th level manuever), better even since you can give an extra action to say a mage who can cast 4 spells per round as a result (even if you don't rule his swift action renews that's 3 spells per round). Even if it only affects someone other than the initiator, it's a swift action, so the initiator can still act.

[edit] also it takes the key balancing factor to stormguard warrior (the fact that it takes 2 turns to do) and allows it in one turn (the wording of the feat implies it's the targets next turn, which satisfies stormguard warrior). All in all just to good for a 3rd level manuever. [edit]

 

[shilsen]

it's a 3rd level manuever and as good as time stands still (a 9th level manuever), better even since you can give an extra action to say a mage who can cast 4 spells per round as a result (even if you don't rule his swift action renews that's 3 spells per round). Even if it only affects someone other than the initiator, it's a swift action, so the initiator can still act.

[edit] also it takes the key balancing factor to stormguard warrior (the fact that it takes 2 turns to do) and allows it in one turn (the wording of the feat implies it's the targets next turn, which satisfies stormguard warrior). All in all just to good for a 3rd level manuever. [edit]

Agreed completely. I'm running a Crusader in an online game and playing in a tabletop game with someone else playing a warblade. Even though the DMs never banned it, and another player suggested I take it, I took one look at the maneuver and said, "Hell, no! I'm not touching that thing." The warblade player also skipped it intentionally.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Yeah, WRT can be messy. We played around with Bo9S characters at different levels and at one point two of us had WRT. That got incredibly messy when we both targeted the SwordSage, who proceeded to unleash a barrage of attacks (many of them touch) on the hapless foe.

I run 3.0 and am allowing Bo9S for epic levels. WRT is powerful but at that point it's an epic class feature in a game with 3.0 haste, so it's not too bad. Otherwise fuhgetaboutit.

 

[jasin]

it's a 3rd level manuever and as good as time stands still (a 9th level manuever), better even since you can give an extra action to say a mage who can cast 4 spells per round as a result (even if you don't rule his swift action renews that's 3 spells per round). Even if it only affects someone other than the initiator, it's a swift action, so the initiator can still act.

How about if WRT could only increase the target's initiative count, not decrease it? So you could let someone take their turn earlier than they would otherwise, but you can't continually delay just after them and have them go again immediately after that.

 

[Mort]

How about if WRT could only increase the target's initiative count, not decrease it? So you could let someone take their turn earlier than they would otherwise, but you can't continually delay just after them and have them go again immediately after that.

That would work.

Even better just add on: WRT does not renew any actions the target may have used this turn. Then it's a nice tactical manuever not a time warp.