Bogged down by D&D grapple rules.

[Dr_Rictus]

Now, does he need to spend an additional round of grappling to pin his opponent, or does the pinning occur automatically when he wins the first opposed check?

The pin is a separate grapple check, though that could happen during the same round if you have multiple attacks.

 

[Stalker0]

Is the problem:

1) The rules are hard to understand and your players don't get them
and/or
2) The rules are slow (too much rolling, figuring things out)?

 

[werk]

I think hes getting confused by the large area of possible actions.

Yeah, like I saaid, it's difficult initially, but once you learn it it's not that bad.

Consider - square root of 144. That's really hard to calculate, but once you know the answer is 12, it's really really easy.

While at it i want to confirm something.
...Now, does he need to spend an additional round of grappling to pin his opponent, or does the pinning occur automatically when he wins the first opposed check?

Like the Dr. said, succeed an opposed grapple check while maintaining a grapple. So, usually in the next round, but possible in the same round.

 

[Ilium]

I think hes getting confused by the large area of possible actions.

While at it i want to confirm something.

Let us say bob suceeds in the touch attacks, starts a grapple, and wins the opposed check. He deals damage.

Just to clarify, he has to win an opposed grapple check to start the grapple first.

Now, does he need to spend an additional round of grappling to pin his opponent, or does the pinning occur automatically when he wins the first opposed check?

Once you're in the grapple you can try another opposed check to do damage. This does not automatically pin the opponent. Pinning requires a different successful opposed grapple. So it's possible to do damage without pinning and possible to pin without doing damage. And keep in mind the pin only lasts until the beginning of your next turn. Which means that if you don't get iterative attacks, and want to maintain a pin, you can't do anything else.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Just try not to worry about most options available while grappling and keep your own grapple check handy.

1. You provoke an AoO
2. Make a touch attack
3. Make a grapple check.

Congratulations, you're grappling!

Then remember 4 basic rules:

1. You can attack the opponent with a light weapon(-4 penalty).
2. You can Move at half speed as a Standard Action if you win a grapple check.
3. Spellcasters can't cast spells with M components unless they have the components out already.
4. You can try to pin your opponent with another grapple check.

Now, usually, grapples don't go into Pins in my experience. They're mostly used by monsters who have Improved Grab and occasionally to grapple spellcasters. But, the Pin stuff is fairly straightforward if you want to get into that. However, if you just focus on that above, then this is all you really need to remember if you want to keep it simple.

 

[Wiseblood]

Is the problem:

1) The rules are hard to understand and your players don't get them
and/or
2) The rules are slow (too much rolling, figuring things out)?

A little bit of both actually.

The way Werk describes it sounds simple enough. However, what I also have to consider is
you have a grapple check which is another type of attack roll, I suppose. In some cases you can substitute other checks such as escape artist. Your armor class is different for foes that you are not grappling and there are special rules for when addithional grapplers join the fray. The rextra rolls the rules (Modifiers and exceptions) and such stack up to a lot of game time to resolve something that is often one on one and more frequently (than regular combat) a non-lethal solution.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Does anyone out there have a simpler set of grappling rules? I ask because the ones presented in the PHB are so tedious and covoluted as to make them unplayable. That is if you understand them at all. I'm looking for something with as few rolls as possible and fewer modifiers.

First off, I present a very easy option (house rule!)
Resolve Grappling as an opposed attack roll, adding a +4 bonus for each size category difference. On a succesful check, the opponent is considered entangled (-4 penalty to dexterity, -2 penalty to attack rolls), cannot move (unless succeeding a grapple check) and he cannot attack anyone else besides those he is grappling or that are grappling him.
To free himself, he has to make a new Grapple Check.
While Grapple, any succesful grapple check also deals damage (Unarmed, Constrict, or whatever you have). In addition, anyone grappling loses his Dex Bonus (if any) to AC.
Pinning requires a succesful grapple check gives outside attackers a +4 bonus to attack.

That said:
I think the Grapple rules are fairly easy. If you have used them a few times, you should have no problems to remember how it works. It all boils down to rolling opposed grapple checks (whose modifiers are relatively fixed and are conviently listed in most stat blocks - since 3.5, at least). The Attacker has the option to deal damage, pin, or escape the grapple.

 

[werk]

A little bit of both actually.

The way Werk describes it sounds simple enough. However, what I also have to consider is
you have a grapple check which is another type of attack roll, I suppose. In some cases you can substitute other checks such as escape artist. Your armor class is different for foes that you are not grappling and there are special rules for when addithional grapplers join the fray. The rextra rolls the rules (Modifiers and exceptions) and such stack up to a lot of game time to resolve something that is often one on one and more frequently (than regular combat) a non-lethal solution.

Sorry, I didn't/don't mean to be flippant...I'm just a direct kinda guy.

It sounds like the core of your problem is not having everything broken out on the character sheets/monster cards. If you break everything out, as shown on the character record sheet on wizards site, you should have your touch AC and grapple check already on there. It's the same as rolling a regular attack, just use the number found in a different box.

Escape artist only comes into play when trying to escape, and rarely is an escape artist check going to be the best way to go.

How often do additional grapplers enter the fray? Is this a problem you experience, or something that you fear may possibly happen in the future that you are unprepared for? In either case, it works the same except no AoO. No bonuses for anyone, nothing like that, it just makes it harder to escape since you have to escape from all grapplers.

It sounds a lot like my neice saying that driving a stick (manual transmission) is too hard.
Have you ever driven a stick?
Once...

Is grappling harder than a 'regular' melee attack? Sure.
Is it cumbersome, tedious, convoluted, unplayable, take forever to resolve a single round?

 

[Wiseblood]

I may give that method a shot Mustrum.

I'm beginning to think you know who I am Werk.
It's funny you should mention a manual trasmission. In my case it really is a great comparison. I *Know* how to drive one (Knowledge and facilty are two different things in my case )and despite the fact that you have a greater degree of controll over your vehicle, I opt for the automatic for ease of use.

 

[werk]

I may give that method a shot Mustrum.

I'm beginning to think you know who I am Werk.
It's funny you should mention a manual trasmission. In my case it really is a great comparison. I *Know* how to drive one (Knowledge and facilty are two different things in my case )and despite the fact that you have a greater degree of controll over your vehicle, I opt for the automatic for ease of use.

These mechanics will haunt you in the future with trips, disarms, sunders, etc. IMHO, It's easier to just sit down and figure it out once and for all. Comparable to multiplication tables or state capitols.

My buddy in Jersey says that people that can't drive stick shouldn't have a driving license, they should have a steering license.

[/soapbox]