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D&D 5E Bombardier and Sabatuer Artificers

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
So, the two main archetypes that I feel are missing from the Artificer, other than the Aeronaut, Self-Forged, a Swarm-of-Small-Bots maker, and an archetype that empowers an armored or artificial hand to punch things really hard, are the Bombardier and the Sabatuer.

Bombardier - So, what does this look like? Well, the basic idea here is to have an artificer who uses missile weapons, enhancing their missiles with arcane explosions and other such effects. Let it be flavored either as alchemical substances loaded into arrows, or sigils drawn on specially prepared missiles. The basic function would be to add damage to ranged weapon attacks, and use the weapon's range when casting spells that normally have a range other than self, while the special limited stuff would be things like;
  • deliver touch spells with a ranged weapon attack
  • "smite" style spell-like effects, or simply give the subclass some extra spells of that nature like ensaring strike and hail of thorns
  • utility trick arrows, like an arrow that explodes out to make a rope ladder or grapple-shot, whatever can be thought of
  • do the basic ranged thing with more powerful spells (ie, limit the basic thing to cantrips and 1st level spells? maybe leveled spells require a bonus action to cast with the weapon?)
  • ignore any limiting properties of the weapon, essentially creating longbows that gnomes can use and repeating crossbows
  • Increase range of ranged attacks
  • sidebar talking about using the archetype with guns
  • Spells: Ranged smite-style spells like hail of thorns, maybe a couple out of class spells that would be really juicy with the subclass abilities, like big booms with a short range normally. I mean, shatter and fireball are great candidates, tbh. Fireball from 600ft with sharpshooter sounds fun to me, but is obviously a balance concern, potentially.

Sabatuer -
The basic idea here is an arcane hacker, trap-maker, and sabatuer of magical effects and devices. Abilities would be stuff like;
  • Make magic items and placed magic effects explode, dealing damage according to a level scale
  • create traps mundane and magical
  • Change what a magical effect does in some way, like changing where a portal goes, replacing the spell in a glyph of warding, changing who can come in and out of an effect safely, etc.
  • Drain magic items and effects to regain spell slots or to recharge other items, or heal, or gain back a subclass specific secondary resource?
  • spells: Dispel Magic and Counterspell, Absorb Elements, Detect Magic, Identify, idk what else tbh
  • Later levels add prof to ability checks made as part of casting a spell, like Counterspell or Dispel Magic

Neither specialty would get every single thing we can think of for them, but I'd rather shorten a long list than pad out a shallow idea.

Any ideas? Anyone think that Sabatuer could be done well as a rogue instead?

Anyone love or hate the idea of a vehicles artificer that gets a personal construct mount that isn't a size category larger than the artificer, like an arcane motorcycle (I wouldn't say a motorcycle is large, but medium creatures ride them just fine) type deal? Something they're meant to be able to have with them pretty much any time a ranger could bring their pet. Maybe it can go between small and medium or medium and large, if necessary?
 

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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Spelling, really? Really?

Nothing at all to contribute? Just a spelling correction?
It's super jarring. It's in the class name for crying out loud! So it completely derailed my brain from "I wonder what idea doctorbadwolf has today" to "what the heck are they talking about?!?!", which is not a good frame of mind to give helpful critique/suggestions.

Maybe it's because of my Francophone background, the error is much more apparent to me than the average person? To me, it's as bad as if you had written something like "A new idea for Padalants"

Also, I didn't have time at the moment I made the post to give you a long response. But a few thoughts:

The pathfinder alchemist is a bit like what you are proposing, with the capacity to throw bombs and such. The capacity of the saboteur to disarm and disable magic traps, items and wards is very interesting but seem very... narrow? Like in certain campaigns this could be very useful, but in others it's not going to come up.

Lastly, I note that the base artificer can already create repeating crossbows.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
It's super jarring. It's in the class name for crying out loud! So it completely derailed my brain from "I wonder what idea doctorbadwolf has today" to "what the heck are they talking about?!?!", which is not a good frame of mind to give helpful critique/suggestions.

Maybe it's because of my Francophone background, the error is much more apparent to me than the average person? To me, it's as bad as if you had written something like "A new idea for Padalants"
It would be more like “Paladens”, which I’d respond the same way to a “fire and forget” correction of with no other content.
Also, I didn't have time at the moment I made the post to give you a long response. But a few thoughts:

The pathfinder alchemist is a bit like what you are proposing, with the capacity to throw bombs and such.
A bit, yeah. Considering the Alchemist is for some reason not really able to do that any more than any other artificer, it seems like a good idea to make a specialty that does so, among other things.
The capacity of the saboteur to disarm and disable magic traps, items and wards is very interesting but seem very... narrow? Like in certain campaigns this could be very useful, but in others it's not going to come up.
Sure, that’s why the concept includes several other abilities.
Lastly, I note that the base artificer can already create repeating crossbows.
Okay. The base artificer can create a pet, too, that doesn’t stop the steel defender from being rad as hell. In this case, making their missile weapon ignore the heavy and loading properties and gain greater range saves an infusion and provides benefits that aren’t in that infusion.
 



So, the two main archetypes that I feel are missing from the Artificer, other than the Aeronaut, Self-Forged, a Swarm-of-Small-Bots maker, and an archetype that empowers an armored or artificial hand to punch things really hard, are the Bombardier and the Saboteur.

Bombardier - So, what does this look like? Well, the basic idea here is to have an artificer who uses missile weapons, enhancing their missiles with arcane explosions and other such effects. Let it be flavored either as alchemical substances loaded into arrows, or sigils drawn on specially prepared missiles. The basic function would be to add damage to ranged weapon attacks, and use the weapon's range when casting spells that normally have a range other than self, while the special limited stuff would be things like;
  • deliver touch spells with a ranged weapon attack
  • "smite" style spell-like effects, or simply give the subclass some extra spells of that nature like ensaring strike and hail of thorns
  • utility trick arrows, like an arrow that explodes out to make a rope ladder or grapple-shot, whatever can be thought of
  • do the basic ranged thing with more powerful spells (ie, limit the basic thing to cantrips and 1st level spells? maybe leveled spells require a bonus action to cast with the weapon?)
  • ignore any limiting properties of the weapon, essentially creating longbows that gnomes can use and repeating crossbows
  • Increase range of ranged attacks
  • sidebar talking about using the archetype with guns
  • Spells: Ranged smite-style spells like hail of thorns, maybe a couple out of class spells that would be really juicy with the subclass abilities, like big booms with a short range normally. I mean, shatter and fireball are great candidates, tbh. Fireball from 600ft with sharpshooter sounds fun to me, but is obviously a balance concern, potentially.
I put together an Artificer class in the "Giving the Arcane gish an identity thread that covered a lot of these bases. I'll try to dig it out and paste it to this thread.


Saboteur -
The basic idea here is an arcane hacker, trap-maker, and saboteur of magical effects and devices. Abilities would be stuff like;
  • Make magic items and placed magic effects explode, dealing damage according to a level scale
  • create traps mundane and magical
  • Change what a magical effect does in some way, like changing where a portal goes, replacing the spell in a glyph of warding, changing who can come in and out of an effect safely, etc.
  • Drain magic items and effects to regain spell slots or to recharge other items, or heal, or gain back a subclass specific secondary resource?
  • spells: Dispel Magic and Counterspell, Absorb Elements, Detect Magic, Identify, idk what else tbh
  • Later levels add prof to ability checks made as part of casting a spell, like Counterspell or Dispel Magic
I think such a class would have two primary mechanics: Countermagic and Traps.

Countermagic - They should get an ability that replicates Dispel magic or Counterspell as a class ability before they would normally get the ability to cast 3rd level spells. (5th level ability perhaps.)
At higher levels they can use that ability to shut down a magic item for a few rounds. Successfully doing so, or using the ability to dispel or counterspell successfully allows a damaging backlash centred on the item, spell, or caster.

Traps. - Trap types and Activation mechanics
Trap types - Possibly chosen like infusions. Range from dealing damage and restraining (Bear trap style) to elemental area explosions.
These will be the Saboteur's main source of regular damage so probably scale like cantrips.

Activation Mechanics. -
Can be thrown to a square within 30ft, is visible, will activate if a creature moves over it. (Or maybe proximity if an AoE trap)
The Saboteur can detonate any trap they have laid as a bonus action. (So they can toss a trap and detonate it on the same round if they have to.)
If a creature moves into a square within 10ft of the saboteur, the saboteur can, as a reaction lay a trap that the creature will step on. The saboteur can take this special reaction a number of times per day equal to their proficiency bonus. The area within which the saboteur can take this reaction increases by 5ft every time the saboteur's proficiency bonus increases.
 


Stormonu

Legend
I hate to say this, but saboteurs & bombadiers unfortunately conjure up too much association with suicide bomber. So much so that back in Pathfinder I was reluctant to allow player’s access to the Alchemist class.

However, I do think that something like the Persian flask-throwers from 300 would be interesting in play - using alchemical containers to lob fireballs or other spells or vials of acid to sabotage locks or cripple clockworks and the like. Good luck coming up with a workable class!
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I put together an Artificer class in the "Giving the Arcane gish an identity thread that covered a lot of these bases. I'll try to dig it out and paste it to this thread.


I think such a class would have two primary mechanics: Countermagic and Traps.

Countermagic - They should get an ability that replicates Dispel magic or Counterspell as a class ability before they would normally get the ability to cast 3rd level spells. (5th level ability perhaps.)
At higher levels they can use that ability to shut down a magic item for a few rounds. Successfully doing so, or using the ability to dispel or counterspell successfully allows a damaging backlash centred on the item, spell, or caster.

Traps. - Trap types and Activation mechanics
Trap types - Possibly chosen like infusions. Range from dealing damage and restraining (Bear trap style) to elemental area explosions.
These will be the Saboteur's main source of regular damage so probably scale like cantrips.

Activation Mechanics. -
Can be thrown to a square within 30ft, is visible, will activate if a creature moves over it. (Or maybe proximity if an AoE trap)
The Saboteur can detonate any trap they have laid as a bonus action. (So they can toss a trap and detonate it on the same round if they have to.)
If a creature moves into a square within 10ft of the saboteur, the saboteur can, as a reaction lay a trap that the creature will step on. The saboteur can take this special reaction a number of times per day equal to their proficiency bonus. The area within which the saboteur can take this reaction increases by 5ft every time the saboteur's proficiency bonus increases.
I like all of these ideas. Hell yeah. Especially the traps.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
So, if you had let is slide, it would have been one post. It is now half a dozen and growing.

Irrelevant. It was an out of line post. I was in the right to point that out and express disappointment in that being someone's entire "contribution" to the thread. If the poster didn't have time to get to anything else, they should have waited to reply at all. I appreciate their later addition, and had the spelling correction been a sidenote to that post I would have just rolled my eyes at it and moved on.

I hate to say this, but saboteurs & bombadiers unfortunately conjure up too much association with suicide bomber. So much so that back in Pathfinder I was reluctant to allow player’s access to the Alchemist class.

However, I do think that something like the Persian flask-throwers from 300 would be interesting in play - using alchemical containers to lob fireballs or other spells or vials of acid to sabotage locks or cripple clockworks and the like. Good luck coming up with a workable class!

I don't understand this. Anything that can blow things up automatically associates to suicide bombers?
 

Stormonu

Legend
Irrelevant. It was an out of line post. I was in the right to point that out and express disappointment in that being someone's entire "contribution" to the thread. If the poster didn't have time to get to anything else, they should have waited to reply at all. I appreciate their later addition, and had the spelling correction been a sidenote to that post I would have just rolled my eyes at it and moved on.



I don't understand this. Anything that can blow things up automatically associates to suicide bombers?
No, inevitability in my experience some player comes up with a plan to build the equivalent of a bomb vest as a final retribution strike or strap it to some minion and send it on a “bomb run”. Jokingly shouting a certain phrase while doing so.

Or maybe I just have some players with really bad habits. Too much playing Battlefield 2 in the day, I guess.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
No, inevitability in my experience some player comes up with a plan to build the equivalent of a bomb vest as a final retribution strike or strap it to some minion and send it on a “bomb run”. Jokingly shouting a certain phrase while doing so.

Or maybe I just have some players with really bad habits. Too much playing Battlefield 2 in the day, I guess.
Damn. yeah, that is...a player issue.

Though I will say that the last stand scenario isn't problematic as long as the player isn't treating it as a joke or otherwise tacitly condoning suicide bombing. Someone blowing up the ship after getting everyone else out, taking the enemy with them, isn't actually any different from a last stand at a bottleneck, where death is assured but you may survive long enough to kill most or all of the enemy before you fall.

But yeah, IME those characters generally just throw or shoot explosives at enemies, blow open safes, etc.
 


Bolares

Hero
So, the two main archetypes that I feel are missing from the Artificer, other than the Aeronaut, Self-Forged, a Swarm-of-Small-Bots maker, and an archetype that empowers an armored or artificial hand to punch things really hard, are the Bombardier and the Sabatuer.

Bombardier - So, what does this look like? Well, the basic idea here is to have an artificer who uses missile weapons, enhancing their missiles with arcane explosions and other such effects. Let it be flavored either as alchemical substances loaded into arrows, or sigils drawn on specially prepared missiles. The basic function would be to add damage to ranged weapon attacks, and use the weapon's range when casting spells that normally have a range other than self, while the special limited stuff would be things like;
  • deliver touch spells with a ranged weapon attack
  • "smite" style spell-like effects, or simply give the subclass some extra spells of that nature like ensaring strike and hail of thorns
  • utility trick arrows, like an arrow that explodes out to make a rope ladder or grapple-shot, whatever can be thought of
  • do the basic ranged thing with more powerful spells (ie, limit the basic thing to cantrips and 1st level spells? maybe leveled spells require a bonus action to cast with the weapon?)
  • ignore any limiting properties of the weapon, essentially creating longbows that gnomes can use and repeating crossbows
  • Increase range of ranged attacks
  • sidebar talking about using the archetype with guns
  • Spells: Ranged smite-style spells like hail of thorns, maybe a couple out of class spells that would be really juicy with the subclass abilities, like big booms with a short range normally. I mean, shatter and fireball are great candidates, tbh. Fireball from 600ft with sharpshooter sounds fun to me, but is obviously a balance concern, potentially.

Sabatuer - The basic idea here is an arcane hacker, trap-maker, and sabatuer of magical effects and devices. Abilities would be stuff like;
  • Make magic items and placed magic effects explode, dealing damage according to a level scale
  • create traps mundane and magical
  • Change what a magical effect does in some way, like changing where a portal goes, replacing the spell in a glyph of warding, changing who can come in and out of an effect safely, etc.
  • Drain magic items and effects to regain spell slots or to recharge other items, or heal, or gain back a subclass specific secondary resource?
  • spells: Dispel Magic and Counterspell, Absorb Elements, Detect Magic, Identify, idk what else tbh
  • Later levels add prof to ability checks made as part of casting a spell, like Counterspell or Dispel Magic

Neither specialty would get every single thing we can think of for them, but I'd rather shorten a long list than pad out a shallow idea.

Any ideas? Anyone think that Sabatuer could be done well as a rogue instead?

Anyone love or hate the idea of a vehicles artificer that gets a personal construct mount that isn't a size category larger than the artificer, like an arcane motorcycle (I wouldn't say a motorcycle is large, but medium creatures ride them just fine) type deal? Something they're meant to be able to have with them pretty much any time a ranger could bring their pet. Maybe it can go between small and medium or medium and large, if necessary?
Have you checked Archetypes of Eberron? If I recall correctly they have a saboteaur (can't spell this nightmare of a word) in there. It's on the DM's Guild and was done by IUmogen Gingell, one of the designers who is writing frequently for KB productions.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Have you checked Archetypes of Eberron? If I recall correctly they have a saboteaur (can't spell this nightmare of a word) in there. It's on the DM's Guild and was done by IUmogen Gingell, one of the designers who is writing frequently for KB productions.
I’ll check that out, thanks!
 



niklinna

Explorer
Some cool ideas! What would their "permanent" constructs be? Not they have to have them, of course; both of these ideas are centered more on single-use things. But, I could see catapults, ballistas, grenade launchers, literal or figurative monkey wrenches, particular kinds of traps (which usually have to sit there for a while before someone triggers them).

I like how you began with "So, the two main archetypes that I feel are missing, other than <list of several archetypes>". :LOL:

Finally, on spelling: Given that search functions are a thing, and not too great about fuzzy spelling match, it's really helpful to get that right. I would even recommend you edit your original post—especially the title—so it comes up when people search for it.
 

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