D&D (2024) Bonus languages in One D&D backgrounds goes contrary to their other goals

Yaarel

He Mage
Racist predeterminism as if genetics and racist predeterminism as if "created that way", are equally problematic.

There were historical arguments that certain races were created to be slaves, etcetera. It is an unethical way of thinking.

Both Tolkien and Gygax were somewhat racist in how they interpreted their fantasy races. It is nonneutral to echo such traditions.
 

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
You’re making a Thermian argument. Yes, “made in God’s own image” is a thing in the setting. That’s the thing that’s problematic. It should not, in my opinion, be a thing in the setting.
A charge of "Thermian argument" is nothing more than an appeal to consequences dressed up in a pop culture reference. You might not like it, but I find that it highlights not only the high fantasy nature of the setting, but also helps to portray that elves, dwarves, etc. aren't simply humans in funny hats.
 

Ondath

Hero
A charge of "Thermian argument" is nothing more than an appeal to consequences dressed up in a pop culture reference. You might not like it, but I find that it highlights not only the high fantasy nature of the setting, but also helps to portray that elves, dwarves, etc. aren't simply humans in funny hats.
"Appeal to consequences" makes it sound like the Thermian argument is a logical fallacy that establishes an incorrect way of forming a belief. The idea is that since our beliefs about what's true in the world should not be shaped by the social consequences of that truth, appealing to consequences is faulty logic.

In science, where facts can be established through rigorous methods, that might be true. But I think social truths are determined by their consequences simply because social facts are man-made — and thus, we should probably keep the ethicality of their consequences in mind.

Does the Thermian argument say that the socially undesirable consequences of a fictional fact weigh in on whether we take that fact to be acceptable? Yes it does. But given how the fictional worlds we consume have an effect on our worldviews whether we like them or not, I don't think this consideration is fallacious. Yes, older works of fiction often have species created in the image of their creator, but knowing what we do on critical theory and how such arguments have been used to demonise or oppress real peoples in the past, our fictional worlds are better off not having such species.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
A charge of "Thermian argument" is nothing more than an appeal to consequences dressed up in a pop culture reference.
How so?
You might not like it, but I find that it highlights not only the high fantasy nature of the setting, but also helps to portray that elves, dwarves, etc. aren't simply humans in funny hats.
That’s a valid opinion. I disagree with it, because I think the biological essentialist implications are more undesirable than “hilighting the fantasy nature of the setting” is desireable, and I think “humans in funny hats” is an un-compelling critique of keeping culture out of race.

Regardless, this battle has already been decided. WotC has said they’re trying to take cultural features out of races. All that’s left is to hammer out what that means.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Does the Thermian argument say that the socially undesirable consequences of a fictional fact weigh in on whether we take that fact to be acceptable? Yes it does
Not really. A Thermian argument is an argument defending a critique of a work’s writing based on in-fiction logic. Pointing out that someone is making a Thermian argument is not inherently claiming that the critique is correct, only that the defense against it is not meeting the critique on its own terms.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
"Appeal to consequences" makes it sound like the Thermian argument is a logical fallacy that establishes an incorrect way of forming a belief. The idea is that since our beliefs about what's true in the world should not be shaped by the social consequences of that truth, appealing to consequences is faulty logic.
Right, so far so good.
In science, where facts can be established through rigorous methods, that might be true. But I think social truths are determined by their consequences simply because social facts are man-made — and thus, we should probably keep the ethicality of their consequences in mind.
The problem with this is that it requires weighing every conceivable interpretation, which is not only impractical but also impossible, and then weighing contradictory interpretations against each other to decide which should be given more weight. Hence why the ethicality should be viewed as inherent to the nature of the action unto itself, rather than the consequences that they generate. For instance, murder is inherently wrong unto itself, not because the consequences might be deleterious for people (which correctly notes that it's not okay to murder someone even if they're a "bad person" or if you think no one will care). Of course, this also points out that fictional instances of a bad thing aren't the same as actual instances of it, since RPGs tend to involve murder on a large scale without anyone being hurt by it.
Does the Thermian argument say that the socially undesirable consequences of a fictional fact weigh in on whether we take that fact to be acceptable? Yes it does. But given how the fictional worlds we consume have an effect on our worldviews whether we like them or not, I don't think this consideration is fallacious. Yes, older works of fiction often have species created in the image of their creator, but knowing what we do on critical theory and how such arguments have been used to demonise or oppress real peoples in the past, our fictional worlds are better off not having such species.
The idea that what we consume has an effect on our worldviews is an idea which remains controversial, largely because the exact nature of what that effect is remains difficult (at best) to measure, let alone attribute to any particular source. This is especially true with regard to self-evident fiction (as opposed to, say, media that presents itself as factual in nature), which adults (presuming they don't have mental health problems preventing them from distinguishing between fantasy and reality) will be necessarily predisposed to dismissing in terms of shaping a worldview. For an example of this, notice how (at least until recently) violent crime rates were going down despite a rise in violent video game availability.

Which isn't to say that there's no effect at all, but in most cases this results in very short-term changes in mood in response to stimuli, such as sad movies making us feel sad, action films making us feel excited, porn making us aroused, etc. But those are all short-term effects, and are highly obtrusive in nature (e.g. there's no subconscious "programming" going on). To that end, the idea that repeated consumption of fiction will cause people to internalize (and translate, since quite often that fiction doesn't have a 1:1 parallel between what it presents and the real world) the messages it contains, which as noted often need to be translated anyway, is a much harder row to hoe. While I have no doubt that people have strongly held feelings about what they find personally off-putting in an RPG, to bring this back around to the context under discussion, I don't think that's necessarily a compelling argument unto itself for changing the presentation of the material in question.
 
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
It says that the possibility that someone could, or does, find the material unappealing is sufficient reason to change it, regardless of how much sense the material makes with regards to its own internal logic and self-consistency. Since those things are some of the hallmarks of good writing, it's therefore something I look askance on, as good writing is already hard enough to come by (e.g. Sturgeon's Law).
That’s a valid opinion. I disagree with it, because I think the biological essentialist implications are more undesirable than “hilighting the fantasy nature of the setting” is desireable, and I think “humans in funny hats” is an un-compelling critique of keeping culture out of race.
And that's a perfectly valid opinion; we might be on opposite sides of this particular issue, but I'm glad we can discuss it civilly (which is part of why I prefer these forums to most others).
Regardless, this battle has already been decided. WotC has said they’re trying to take cultural features out of races. All that’s left is to hammer out what that means.
So long as people care about these issues enough to speak up, I don't think the "battle" is ever truly decided.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
It says that the possibility that someone could, or does, find the material unappealing is sufficient reason to change it, regardless of how much sense the material makes with regards to its own internal logic and self-consistency.
Not at all. It only points out that internal logic is not a compelling rebuttal of a critique about the real-world social implications of the work. It’s missing the point, because the critique isn’t about the internal logic.
Since those things are some of the hallmarks of good writing, it's therefore something I look askance on, as good writing is already hard enough to come by (e.g. Sturgeon's Law).
I agree that internal logic and self-consistency are desirable things in a work. It’s just not the thing that’s being critiqued in this case.
And that's a perfectly valid opinion; we might be on opposite sides of this particular issue, but I'm glad we can discuss it civilly (which is part of why I prefer these forums to most others).
👍
So long as people care about these issues enough to speak up, I don't think the "battle" is ever truly decided.
I think the decision has been made and is not going to be changed by any amount of people on forums “speaking up.” WotC is taking cultural elements out of races in One D&D. Survey feedback will determine what exactly that means. I think whatever the next rules evolution after this one ends up being, that will be the soonest opportunity for that pendulum to swing back.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Not at all. It only points out that internal logic is not a compelling rebuttal of a critique about the real-world social implications of the work. It’s missing the point, because the critique isn’t about the internal logic.
Leaving aside the validity of that particular form of critique (i.e. whether finding something personally unappealing is a compelling reason for its creator to change it), it should be noted that these are orthogonal points of discussion. How much sense a setting makes and how much someone likes it are two separate conversations.
I agree that internal logic and self-consistency are desirable things in a work. It’s just not the thing that’s being critiqued in this case.
In this case, I disagree; as noted above, I think that there are two (well, more than two, but for this particular instance we're talking about two) different conversations being held; it's just that there's not a lot of acknowledgment of that, and so they become blended.
I think the decision has been made and is not going to be changed by any amount of people on forums “speaking up.” WotC is taking cultural elements out of races in One D&D. Survey feedback will determine what exactly that means. I think whatever the next rules evolution after this one ends up being, that will be the soonest opportunity for that pendulum to swing back.
Probably, but it's not like that won't ever happen. Heck, I expect most of us will still be right here on these forums when it does!
 

Remathilis

Legend
I think in the case of D&D, the issue with races being humans in funny hats is that there are a finite amount of hats to go around, as far as mechanics are concerned. Biology might account for size, speed, senses, and natural attacks and defenses, but that is a very small window to design in. We've removed cultural influence from race, and we have decided racial penalty (slow speed, sunlight sensitivity) is likewise out of vogue. The only real design area left is magic, aka a wizard/demon/God did it. Which is why most races now get supernatural abilities or spellcasting.

All we're arguing now is what is appropriate as far as the gifts given and the source of the gift. I'm getting a distinct feeling that "a God blessed them" isn't going to be sufficient, which is further going to limit design space. (And if anyone wonders why so many new races have Feywild origins, it's an easy way to give magical ability to races without the "a God did it" excuse).
 

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