Book of 9 Swords: One discipline Only?

[Seeten]

Rystil also allowed the guy the Stygian mark that adds 2d6 cold dmg, which is only available to evil people of a certain blah blah to a neutral guy for extra cold damage, from the Fiendish Codex.

Swordsages are not overpowered, the specific combo Rystil manufactured with feats that shouldnt all be on one character, doing a modified damage type, is whats caused his particular swordsage to be better than normal. Other people reading this thread should know the Swordsage has Mark of Stygia(as a Lawful Neutral) and a boatload of other off the wall feats that cause this "Power spike".

 

[Rystil Arden]

Rystil also allowed the guy the Stygian mark that adds 2d6 cold dmg, which is only available to evil people of a certain blah blah to a neutral guy for extra cold damage, from the Fiendish Codex.

Swordsages are not overpowered, the specific combo Rystil manufactured with feats that shouldnt all be on one character, doing a modified damage type, is whats caused his particular swordsage to be better than normal. Other people reading this thread should know the Swordsage has Mark of Stygia(as a Lawful Neutral) and a boatload of other off the wall feats that cause this "Power spike".

I believe that Mark of Stygia is the only feat that leads to that effect (okay, I guess if you think Two-Weapon Fighting is 'off-the-wall', then I can't help you), and a decent Bard would have given the same bonus (he almost never got the 2d6 cold damage from the Mark because it requires a Swift action, and he didn't have one to spare usually thanks to a Boost). I'm also perplexed as to why allowing a feat usually meant for Lawful Evil characters to a Lawful Neutral character is any change in power at all (unless the character was also using things that couldn't be used by Evil characters, then I could see your point, but he isn't. He could be Lawful Evil and be doing the exact same things he is doing right now).

Also, I don't consider him evidence that Swordsages are overpowered. He is evidence that you can make a powerful single-discipline intiator. Better evidence is the White Raven only Warblade (which is actually still overpowered if you don't nerf Tactics and Warmaster's Charge) or the Leaping Dragon Attack master with Tiger, but that's more evidence that certain manoeuvres are badly-balanced.

If I was one of the people who dismissed Bo9S as overpowered and didn't want to work with it, I wouldn't be having this conversation. I do think that it needs to be tinkered with carefully before it is acceptable in my game, and I also like the flavour of having only one school (I make the player think about where they are getting their power, rather than using the blah default "Everyone can learn all these martial arts schools" flavour--so for instance, the normal Desert Wind Swordsage was of a desert race touched by sand and had an innate power to control sand and heat, whereas the icy Desert Wind Swordsage got his powers directly from Levistus, still trapped in the ice in Stygia (a nice fit, since Levistus's preferred fighting style is similar to the Desert Wind) )

 

[Seeten]

You know balance well enough to know why, come on. You are adding 4 to all his attack and damage rolls. You changed fire to ice, (There is no similar feat for fire, so that dumps 4 of his hit, and 4 of his damage right there, if he was a core swordsage, not to mention the feat itself is not a normal PC feat) and a decent bard gives +4 hit and damage to everyone, not JUST to the Swordsage, but you already know that.

Swordsages are not nearly as hot as you make out your customed out players swordsage to be. Further, if I custom out a Kobold, I can make Pun-Pun which makes this guy pretty weak, in comparison, and thats basically what you've done here. It is not indicative of Swordsage balance to take Fiendish Codex feats, allowed to LE only, and allow them to LN, change Desert Wind to Icy Wind, add more feats from other sources, flavor to taste, and CALL ALL SWORDSAGES unbalanced. Its just as silly as me saying all kobolds are unbalanced because Pun-Pun exists. Its silly, and you are telling all the people who read this board that Tome of Battle is unbalanced in real play because of it, and some of them may actually believe it, based on this monstrosity which is not indicative of any other swordsages.

You are a very smart guy, Rystil.

 

[Rystil Arden]

You know balance well enough to know why, come on. You are adding 4 to all his attack and damage rolls. You changed fire to ice, (There is no similar feat for fire, so that dumps 4 of his hit, and 4 of his damage right there, if he was a core swordsage, not to mention the feat itself is not a normal PC feat) and a decent bard gives +4 hit and damage to everyone, not JUST to the Swordsage, but you already know that.

Swordsages are not nearly as hot as you make out your customed out players swordsage to be. Further, if I custom out a Kobold, I can make Pun-Pun which makes this guy pretty weak, in comparison, and thats basically what you've done here. It is not indicative of Swordsage balance to take Fiendish Codex feats, allowed to LE only, and allow them to LN, change Desert Wind to Icy Wind, add more feats from other sources, flavor to taste, and CALL ALL SWORDSAGES unbalanced. Its just as silly as me saying all kobolds are unbalanced because Pun-Pun exists. Its silly, and you are telling all the people who read this board that Tome of Battle is unbalanced in real play because of it, and some of them may actually believe it, based on this monstrosity which is not indicative of any other swordsages.

You are a very smart guy, Rystil.

The Marshal gave the bonus to everyone too. Giving everyone the bonus doesn't change the fact that the +4 bonus coming from a Bard is enough to confidently answer the question "How was the Swordsage hitting AC 40+ enemies?".

It's besides the point, though. As I said in my post above, you can balance a one-discipline Swordsage in actual play. The guy who played a straight-fire Desert Wind Swordsage was fine too.

My proof that initiators with all the schools are unbalanced in my games (and they are) is not from this guy (he wasn't unbalanced--he was fine) but from playtest. And when I say unbalanced, I don't mean broken, I have a very high tolerance for what actually screws up my game. Things like Wraithstrike fit in that category. As do some of the White Raven manoeuvres, actually. But only a few Swordsage manoeuvres fit in there (LDA, for instance, due to the possibility of unsavably high DCs).

EDIT: Also, you are vastly mischaracterising the character's diversity of feats. He had the FCII thing, Adaptive Style, and the TWF chain. That's it. He would have met the qualifications of some GMs here that say "You can use the core and any two other books of your choice".

 

[Seeten]

If I was one of the people who dismissed Bo9S as overpowered and didn't want to work with it, I wouldn't be having this conversation. I do think that it needs to be tinkered with carefully before it is acceptable in my game, and I also like the flavour of having only one school (I make the player think about where they are getting their power, rather than using the blah default "Everyone can learn all these martial arts schools" flavour--so for instance, the normal Desert Wind Swordsage was of a desert race touched by sand and had an innate power to control sand and heat, whereas the icy Desert Wind Swordsage got his powers directly from Levistus, still trapped in the ice in Stygia (a nice fit, since Levistus's preferred fighting style is similar to the Desert Wind) )

Flavor is nice. I like the flavor of being a wandering martial artist, practicing multiple styles, too, very much in flavor of the "Martial Arts Master".

Further, Druids can easily be powerful by limiting them to PHB only, and allowing no other supplements or feats.

Your stance on Swordsages sounds just like that to me. I saw a powerful druid once, so now in my games, all Druids get PHB only. The disciplines arent amazing gamebreakers. Knowing 5 won't break your game. I know 10 games going on right now with Warblades and Swordsages, and Crusaders, which are not overpowering their tables, even knowing multiple disciplines.

I know core only Druids that are dominating their games, even ones including multiple discipline Swordsages.

Play your game how you want, but telling other people that empirical testing shows initiators should be restricted to one discipline, based on a couple of busted white raven maneuvers? Not so much.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Flavor is nice. I like the flavor of being a wandering martial artist, practicing multiple styles, too, very much in flavor of the "Martial Arts Master".

Further, Druids can easily be powerful by limiting them to PHB only, and allowing no other supplements or feats.

Your stance on Swordsages sounds just like that to me. I saw a powerful druid once, so now in my games, all Druids get PHB only. The disciplines arent amazing gamebreakers. Knowing 5 won't break your game. I know 10 games going on right now with Warblades and Swordsages, and Crusaders, which are not overpowering their tables, even knowing multiple disciplines.

I know core only Druids that are dominating their games, even ones including multiple discipline Swordsages.

Play your game how you want, but telling other people that empirical testing shows Swordsages should be restricted to one discipline, based on Levistus guy? Not so much.

EDIT: Unneeded thanks to your edit--thanks!

 

[Seeten]

My proof that initiators with all the schools are unbalanced in my games (and they are) is not from this guy (he wasn't unbalanced--he was fine) but from playtest. And when I say unbalanced, I don't mean broken, I have a very high tolerance for what actually screws up my game. Things like Wraithstrike fit in that category. As do some of the White Raven manoeuvres, actually. But only a few Swordsage manoeuvres fit in there (LDA, for instance, due to the possibility of unsavably high DCs).

EDIT: Also, you are vastly mischaracterising the character's diversity of feats. He had the FCII thing, Adaptive Style, and the TWF chain. That's it. He would have met the qualifications of some GMs here that say "You can use the core and any two other books of your choice".

There are a few ToB maneuvers that need Errata and need it fast. The Tiger Claw stun or die maneuver is one(although its ridiculously high level) and the White Raven maneuvers that give tons of extra actions to everyone are in need of balancing. That does not make the whole book unbalanced, nor does it make multidiscipline characters unbalanced, it makes the DM need to ban or alter a couple of maneuvers. If you found them unbalanced in playtest, its because they are, it isnt because having two different disciplines is unbalanced.

 

[Rystil Arden]

There are a few ToB maneuvers that need Errata and need it fast. The Tiger Claw stun or die maneuver is one(although its ridiculously high level) and the White Raven maneuvers that give tons of extra actions to everyone are in need of balancing. That does not make the whole book unbalanced, nor does it make multidiscipline characters unbalanced, it makes the DM need to ban or alter a couple of maneuvers. If you found them unbalanced it playtest, its because they are, it isnt because having two different disciplines is unbalanced.

Even after I excised the problem abilities, multidiscipline characters were problematic in playtest. Note that I did playtest highly-optimised initiators when I used my normal crew as a baseline because my normal crew is also highly-optimised. However, I can confidently state that a White-Raven-only Warblade with the correct nerfs is not too noticably overpowered and actually makes the game more fun for the whole party, despite the big hullabaloo about the Warblade (notably, the class is noticably overpowered in my playtest with all the Warblade disciplines from which to choose).

I did not playtest vanilla initiators because I do not have a good baseline party on which to test that arose from real play.

 

[Seeten]

Please stop saying that I based the restrictions on Levistus guy.

(EDIT: I realised I shouldn't assume motivations--but it seems to me that you are deliberately ignoring my point to make a claim that I have stated was false--read back, I didn't base it on Levistus guy)

Please. I usually enjoy reading your posts, but that sort of tactic is upsetting.

I was posting while your reply went up, as you are aware, you type quite fast.

I have read several previous Levistus guy threads, so I am basing it not just on this thread, but several. I have read about the White Raven Warblade also, but I recall you previously stating that the restriction was based on the Levistus guy fighting and winning solo against a Solar. Since you state that isnt the case, and since my memory is photographic, but I am running out of hard drive space, I'll assume corruption in that sector, and edit the above post.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I was posting while your reply went up, as you are aware, you type quite fast.

I have read several previous Levistus guy threads, so I am basing it not just on this thread, but several. I have read about the White Raven Warblade also, but I recall you previously stating that the restriction was based on the Levistus guy fighting and winning solo against a Solar. Since you state that isnt the case, and since my memory is photographic, but I am running out of hard drive space, I'll assume corruption in that sector, and edit the above post.

Nope. For what it's worth, you had a bunch of details wrong--it was a Tulani Eladrin, and that wasn't a playtest to make the restriction but rather an actual combat that happened in-game long after the restriction was made.

For a more modest example, try the normal fire non-Levistus Desert Wind Swordsage that joined the same game. At level 15, she soloed a level 15 Fighter and seven level 10 Fighter minions.

EDIT: I did also mention that I didn't use him as evidence in post 32, to which you had already replied, so I thought you had read that part