Book of 9 Swords: One discipline Only?

[hong]

Yep, he gave up the Wis bonus to damage on most of his rounds (he was happy to keep it on the rounds he couldn't use his favourite manoeuvres, of course), but he didn't mind. As for changing the fire to cold, that seemed more a matter of flavour.

If he can use it to get +4 to hit and damage, it's not just flavour any more.

I'm sure that he could have been substantially more ridiculous if he had chosen a school other than Desert Wind, though, that didn't allow the energy resistance. I created as a test character a White Raven School-Only Warblade which broke my game in playtest, for instance, and an appropriately-optimised Concentration master using Concentration checks for damage (and later 2x Concentrations checks) is an absolute murderer at low levels.

The games I'm in, we don't allow skill boosters above +10. At low levels, that would be +5. Still nasty, but not quite as nasty as with +30.

 

[Rystil Arden]

If he can use it to get +4 to hit and damage, it's not just flavour any more.



The games I'm in, we don't allow skill boosters above +10. At low levels, that would be +5. Still nasty, but not quite as nasty as with +30.

The feat would have worked whether or not I switched Desert Wind to be ice as long as he was on ice (like the ground has ice), and it does nonelemental damage, so it wouldn't have been a problem with mixing energy types. Admittedly, changing the energy of the attacks fits the flavour of a character who otherwise loves ice much better, but if he swapped his icy burst weapons for flaming burst, he could have been just as effective (not against Mammon due to fire immunity, but in general).

As to skill boosters, I have similar rules, and in fact I don't even allow +10 for skills like Spellcraft where you can currently convert the bonus into something ridiculous. Concentration had previously not been one of those, but still, let's say your party saves up and has the Wizard craft you a +10 skill booster ASAP (my party would definitely do this because it is so worth it for the price)--we'll say it takes until level 5, which is conservative if the party is keeping an eye out to get you the item.

Concentration bonus = 8 ranks + ~4/5 Con + 3 Skill Focus + 1/2 (Either Born Under a Half Moon or a +2/+2 skill feat if your GM allows ones not in the PH) + 5 (Marshal's Minor Aura) + 10 Item = somewhere from 31-33. Then add 1d20 (or 10 if you were sneaky and took Steady Concentration to help out with all the many Concentration checks you'll be rolling if this is your only school). This is a hefty amount of damage. I can't think of many other ways to do that much damage in a round at level 5 (and what level strike is the 2xConcentration roll one?)

 

[hong]

The feat would have worked whether or not I switched Desert Wind to be ice as long as he was on ice (like the ground has ice), and it does nonelemental damage, so it wouldn't have been a problem with mixing energy types.

The way you're describing this feat, it's starting to sound like it's the one that's broken. +4 to hit and damage no matter what...? Say what?

Concentration bonus = 8 ranks + ~4/5 Con + 3 Skill Focus + 1/2 (Either Born Under a Half Moon or a +2/+2 skill feat if your GM allows ones not in the PH) + 5 (Marshal's Minor Aura) + 10 Item = somewhere from 31-33. Then add 1d20 (or 10 if you were sneaky and took Steady Concentration to help out with all the many Concentration checks you'll be rolling if this is your only school). This is a hefty amount of damage. I can't think of many other ways to do that much damage in a round at level 5 (and what level strike is the 2xConcentration roll one?)

Personally, I would step in and say that no, you can't take a +2/+2 feat for Concentration, and/or a +10 Concentration item at 5th level. Why? Because the maneuver clearly overlooks the ways in which you can cheese out skills in D&D -- Mearls must have still been in Iron Heroes mode when he wrote this one. In IH you don't have things like +10 skill items floating around, which makes life much simpler.

There's a similar problem with leaping dragon attack in Tiger Claw (Fort save to avoid being stunned, DC = Jump check result). Both GIS and LDA are mentioned as potentially broken in my session report for my 16th level swordsage in AoW, for this very reason.

In any case, though, that's just one attack. At 6th level the barb gets a second iterative attack, and that can easily break 30-40 points each round.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The way you're describing this feat, it's starting to sound like it's the one that's broken. +4 to hit and damage no matter what...? Say what?

As long as you're standing on ice. It took some ingenuity on the part of the player to insure that this is almost always the case.

Personally, I would step in and say that no, you can't take a +2/+2 feat for Concentration, and/or a +10 Concentration item at 5th level. Why? Because the maneuver clearly overlooks the ways in which you can cheese out skills in D&D -- Mearls must have still been in Iron Heroes mode when he wrote this one. In IH you don't have things like +10 skill items floating around, which makes life much simpler.

There's a similar problem with leaping dragon attack in Tiger Claw (Fort save to avoid being stunned, DC = Jump check result). Both GIS and LDA are mentioned as potentially broken in my session report for my 16th level swordsage in AoW, for this very reason.

In any case, though, that's just one attack. At 6th level the barb gets a second iterative attack, and that can easily break 30-40 points each round.

I agree that the manoeuvre is broken due to D&D's skill system, and the Tiger Claw one too. My solution is to disallow manoeuvres with FX based on skills, since even if you instead disallow these things we are specifically mentioning, there are plenty of ways to add ridiculous amounts to skill checks (several spells add caster level to a skill check, for instance--a Jade Phoenix Mage could wind up easily with DC 50 Leaping Dragon Attacks that way). Instead of going in and banning each thing separately that adds to skills, I'll just ban the manoeuvres, which is easy enough because I only allow single-discipline initiators, and I look carefully at what discipline they choose and might not allow it even then unless they are willing to let me remove or nerf certain manoeuvres of my choice from their options. Nerfing the manoeuvre instead of removing it would be best done with a cap: Max bonus on the concentration check = ranks + your initiator level, for instance. 1d20+13 is non-negligible at level 5, but not crazy-loco-broken.

As to the 6th-level Barb, I know--that's why I picked 5. Soon the Swordsage grabs the manoeuvre that deals double Concentration check though--what level is that? It's more likely to hit than the Barb's iterative also, especially if the Barb Power Attacks.

 

[hong]

As long as you're standing on ice. It took some ingenuity on the part of the player to insure that this is almost always the case.

I think you may have made life a little easier for him, since there's a boost in Desert Wind that causes you to leave a trail of fire (ice) -- or just letting him take the feat in the first place.

But hey, player ingenuity is the thing. It sounds like your situation is more down to a really smart player knowing how to use tactics and builds to best advantage.

I agree that the manoeuvre is broken due to D&D's skill system, and the Tiger Claw one too. My solution is to disallow manoeuvres with FX based on skills,

But way up there, you said that your solution was to ban people from taking maneuvers from different schools...? Isn't that what touched off this subthread?

As to the 6th-level Barb, I know--that's why I picked 5.

Bad Rystil Arden! Manipulating the parameters of the scenario to produce a desired result! I foresee a rich future for you writing grant proposals.

Soon the Swordsage grabs the manoeuvre that deals double Concentration check though--what level is that? It's more likely to hit than the Barb's iterative also, especially if the Barb Power Attacks.

Greater insightful strike is 6th. I've been routinely hitting 90-100 points with it, although I'm not completely maxed out on Concentration. Still, I was easily being shaded by the party barb, whose player is much better at minmaxing than I am -- 200-240 points on a full attack, depending on how much he Power Attacks for. And that's the capstone strike: 100 points once per encounter, with no other strike being as good (except for LDA but we've put a moratorium on it).

Basically, even with Adaptive Style, my damage output was nowhere near the best of the group. Doing 100-point hits is good for getting people's attention though, I'll admit.

Of course, then I discovered the benefits of diamond nightmare blade, especially in conjunction with swift-action true strike....

 

[Rystil Arden]

I think you may have made life a little easier for him, since there's a boost in Desert Wind that causes you to leave a trail of fire (ice).

But hey, player ingenuity is the thing. It sounds like your situation is more down to a really smart player knowing how to use tactics and builds to best advantage.

That's his backup, and it works nicely as a setup, but he can't count on that if the enemy moves around a lot. His main strategy involves a Decanter of Endless Water harnessed to be pouring downwards and some thingy from Frostburn that makes it really really cold around him (cold enough that water freezes on impact with the ground).

As to smart player, I'd say the two best optimisers are playing the Shou Disciple and the Iajutsu Master, not the Swordsage (notably, they made their characters before Bo9S came out).

But way up there, you said that your solution was to ban people from taking maneuvers from different schools...? Isn't that what touched off this subthread?

Why yes, but I also ban certain schools unless the player allows me to edit them (notably White Raven, but also schools with Skill FX manoeuvres, which is what touched off the sub-subthread )

Bad Rystil Arden! Manipulating the parameters of the scenario to produce a desired result! I foresee a rich future for you writing grant proposals.

Hey, I admit that it only rules the world of damage at low levels, this is true

 

[hong]

That's his backup, and it works nicely as a setup, but he can't count on that if the enemy moves around a lot. His main strategy involves a Decanter of Endless Water harnessed to be pouring downwards and some thingy from Frostburn that makes it really really cold around him (cold enough that water freezes on impact with the ground).

As to smart player, I'd say the two best optimisers are playing the Shou Disciple and the Iajutsu Master (notably, they made their characters before Bo9S came out).



Why yes, but I also ban certain schools unless the player allows me to edit them (notably White Raven, but also schools with Skill FX manoeuvres, which is what touched off the sub-subthread )

Me, I'd ban the decanter of endless water!

 

[Rystil Arden]

Me, I'd ban the decanter of endless water!

I knew it! You were on the WotC Magic the Gathering staff when they started banning every card that could be combined abusively with Tolarian Academy (even if the card was totally harmless on its own) but left Tolarian Academy alone.

 

[hong]

I knew it! You were on the WotC Magic the Gathering staff when they started banning every card that could be combined abusively with Tolarian Academy (even if the card was totally harmless on its own) but left Tolarian Academy alone.

Actually, d00d, remember: I'm the guy who says that thinking too hard about fantasy is bad. Hong's First Law....

 

[Rystil Arden]

Actually, d00d, remember: I'm the guy who says that thinking too hard about fantasy is bad. Hong's First Law....

Yeah I know--that was my bad attempt at a cross-genre joke It also dates me--played Magic from the beginning through the set with Tolarian Academy only (it started getting ridiculous around then).