Book of Nine Swords -- okay?

Nifft · Feb 14, 2007

In honor of the date, let me just say that the most fun couples have "more than one; an indefinite few" members. IYKWIM,AITYD.

Hearts, -- N

The Souljourner · Feb 14, 2007

pawsplay said:
How many times have you played with a pure fighter type and his turn consists of "I hit it. Done."?

Very rarely?

Really? 'Cause it happens all the time in the games I'm in. Sure, it might be something more like "ok... so I'm power attacking 3, and I charged, but I'm also shaken, so my attack roll is at -3... damage is at +6..." <rolls> "I miss." (or) "I hit, I do ... 16 points of damage."

It's just... fighters so often don't have anything interesting to do in a fight. Most of the time they're just mashing the attack button. It's like playing a fighting game on the atari 2600... all you have is that orange attack button.

Sure, you can disarm or trip or bullrush or whatever, but so many of those special manuevers are just doomed to fail against any kind of non-human opponent. Yeah, you may rock against the swarm of orcs, but when the dragon comes out, you're reduced to "I try to hit it".

Book of 9 Swords lets fighters still be fighters, but gives them more options... some decisions to make in combat rather than just how much to power attack.

As for whether or not per-encounter abilities are good or not... I think it's a two edged sword. I really like the removal of this weird "ok, we have to rest at 11am because the wizard is out of spells" mechanic that D&D often runs into... however (if applied to all classes) it would remove the ability to have those really tense fights when the casters are low on magic, and you have to make due with those last few bizarre spells that you never found time to cast..... how do you kill the giant that just walked onto the scene when your cleric only has water walk and daylight, your wizard only has grease and dancing lights, and all your melee guys are low on HP? Those kind of tense, force-you-to-improvise type fights are some of the best, and it's very hard to set those up legitimately if all it takes is a full round action to regain all a PC's resources.

-Nate

P.S. couple = 2 people, unless you live in Utah

Seeten · Feb 14, 2007

A WB 1 has ALL his maneuvers readied, just to be clear. All his maneuvers also happens to total 3.

Tome of Battle is my all time favorite 3.5 book, even if it is a bit mechanically weak. The ideas are awesome, the polish on the mechanical side is just a little lacking.

Nifft · Feb 14, 2007

The Souljourner said:
P.S. couple = 2 people, unless you live in Utah

... or cheat. Or are in college. Or ...

Cheers, -- N

Henry · Feb 14, 2007

Nail said:
Spring attack doesn't work with most maneuvers (strikes are Std Actions).

Sorry, Henry!

Good to know -- but it doesn't invalidate tumble working after or before a strike, which both swordsages and warblades have (and also nice to know the boosts should work). Even with a -10 for full-speed, it's a bargain. (Also glad to know if I ever play a martial adept I'm not wasting feats on spring attack.)

pawsplay · Feb 14, 2007

Yeah, you may rock against the swarm of orcs, but when the dragon comes out, you're reduced to "I try to hit it".

I really don't think so. Fighters should be very busy in that fight; trying to limit the dragon's movement toward squishier characters, readying to interrupt, adjusting weapons and tactics, and conferring with casters about healing and buffs. If the dragon is cornered, they may need their shield; if it takes to the wing, they may need their bow. If it turns invisible, they may have to dash about until they run into it. They may have to purposefully draw AoOs to give rogues and casters room to escape, or step forward into a full attack so that the rogue directly behind them has cover against the dragon's reach.

Fighters have potions to drink, alchemical items to hurl, oils to use... The idea that they just stand there and hack away is a failure of imagination.

Nail · Feb 14, 2007

pawsplay said:
... The idea that they <Ftrs> just stand there and hack away is a failure of imagination.

In our high-leveled game (we went to 22nd - 23rd level), the Ftr was quite busy - and having loads of fun - doing all sorts of tactics. "I hit it" was just one of them.

blargney the second · Feb 14, 2007

With the addition of the per-encounter model, our games have gotten more heroic. At second level. I like that.
-blarg

The Souljourner · Feb 14, 2007

pawsplay said:
I really don't think so. Fighters should be very busy in that fight; trying to limit the dragon's movement toward squishier characters, readying to interrupt, adjusting weapons and tactics, and conferring with casters about healing and buffs. If the dragon is cornered, they may need their shield; if it takes to the wing, they may need their bow. If it turns invisible, they may have to dash about until they run into it. They may have to purposefully draw AoOs to give rogues and casters room to escape, or step forward into a full attack so that the rogue directly behind them has cover against the dragon's reach.

Fighters have potions to drink, alchemical items to hurl, oils to use... The idea that they just stand there and hack away is a failure of imagination.

While I agree, none of those things are things that fighters have any real special ability with. The cleric or ranger or paladin or druid can do all those things just as well.... and do a whole bunch of other stuff, too. I don't like that fighters kinda become the "draw attacks of opportunity and get in the way of movement" guys.

You think of a fighter tank in an MMORPG (or for us oldbies, MUDs), and they're keeping the badguy off the squishy characters... there's just no mechanical way for them to do that in D&D. Attacks of opportunity are one way 3.x has helped with that, but it's honestly not enough. Often times reach and the pure fact that the enemy can *eat* an attack of opportunity makes it so they just ignore the melee guys and hit the guys throwing empowered orbs of I-don't-know-what.

I saw White Raven maneuvers and thought - holy crap, that's what I've been looking for in D&D for 15 years!

I agree that the pure mechanics could probably be polished a bit, but from the point of view of a pure fighter, they're a godsend for making combats interesting again.

And I think that's part of the key - if you can describe your fighters actions in interesting an complex ways, and you find that interesting and fun, you don't need anything other than the PHB. For those of us who are old and jaded, we need the new h0tness to make playing the sword swinger not a simple act of calculating probabilities.

-Nate