D&D 4E Book of Vile Darkness: What do you want in it?

[Pour]

Oh I'm all for Vecna, as a god of dark knowledge and secrets, being the collector and partial-author. Gives him a cool Abdul Alhazred vibe at least for the years he was in possession of it. And then to have it passed throughout the planes and the villains in them really resonates.

I was thinking this book would be a great opportunity for the creative team and choice freelancers to really shine, each of them taking a contributor's section and giving it their best. 15 authors would very much be in the spirit of this sort of book.

 

[Dausuul]

Yeah, definitely lose the "BSDM is eeeeevil!" theme. A bit of kinky art is one thing, but seriously--magic nipple clamps? Who thought that one up? To the extent that belongs anywhere, it's in the BoEF, thanks very much.

Anyhow... my ideal Book of Vile Darkness would have three sections:

The Road to Hell. In "Heroes of Horror," there was a mechanic called "taint," where doing bad things would cause your character to become twisted in body and mind. HoH's implementation was... uh... bad, but the idea is a good one.

What I would like to see is something like this: "Dark paths" that a PC can go down. Some of these paths will have your character being tempted by a demonic, diabolic, or Far Realms patron, while others simply involve delving deeper and deeper into a particular type of evil. As a PC, you always choose whether to advance along your path or not--it's not something for the DM to use as a "gotcha!"--and at each step, you gain new powers but suffer new penalties as well.

Advancement would probably be limited to no more than once per level, and require some sort of special action or ritual.

The Power of the Dark Side. This would be a "bestiary" for the DM's use, but give each monster some non-combat powers and hooks to build adventures around. Demons that can raise hordes of undead, devils that offer powerful gifts and exact a terrible price, evil spirits that can attack PCs in their dreams... et cetera, et cetera. Try to avoid monsters that are just statblocks to be whacked.

When You're Evil. A guide for players and DMs incorporating evil themes into a campaign. Suggest ways to portray evil, how to build evil PCs that can work within a party, and warn people about subjects that need to be approached with caution or avoided altogether (hint: be extra super careful about anything to do with rape).

 

[SSquirrel]

Are you talking about this novel? Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Product (Sandstorm)

Hmm ok, didn't realize it was a novel. Replace that with Libre Mortis vs Open Grave, not to mention the BoVD, 2 Draconomicons, the X Power series replacing the Complete series, Manual of the Planes (I will grant there was a major overhaul of the planes). I understand they need to make money, and since they decided to leave a large chunk of the dragons out of the first MM, they had to do something to get them out there, but the level of retread is pretty high.

 

[Dausuul]

Hmm ok, didn't realize it was a novel. Replace that with Libre Mortis vs Open Grave, not to mention the BoVD, 2 Draconomicons, the X Power series replacing the Complete series, Manual of the Planes (I will grant there was a major overhaul of the planes). I understand they need to make money, and since they decided to leave a large chunk of the dragons out of the first MM, they had to do something to get them out there, but the level of retread is pretty high.

Be fair now. Certain things you're going to see in every edition; complaining about them is like complaining about how every edition has a Player's Handbook. There will always be a "dragon book" (if not several), an "undead book," a "planes book," and so forth. People want these things, and they want them up-to-date. Likewise, there will always be class-focused splatbooks.

That said, I agree that 4E is going a little overboard with the retro. We really should have had an original 4E setting by this point.

 

[SSquirrel]

That said, I agree that 4E is going a little overboard with the retro. We really should have had an original 4E setting by this point.

Eberron may not have been to everyone's taste, but it can't be denied that it was very different from past D&D settings. I want to see books on the shelf and realize I haven't seen a D&D book like THAT before and feel the NEED to buy it. Rather than, "Oh yeah, they didn't give me nearly enough undead in the MM, I'd better buy Open Grave".

 

[Ourph]

What I'd like to see in a BoVD 4e...

NPC class templates for evil NPCs
Evil races for evil NPCs
Lots of evil rituals with suggestions for plot hooks and related skill challenges.
Lots of evil magic items with backstory and suggestions for plot hooks and how to use them in the game without just handing them to the PCs at the end of a fight.
New rules for evil rituals and how to make flavorful use of components, aid another and related rules in the context of evil casters.
Lots of new diseases with detailed disease tracks.
More campaign setting and flavor details on evil deities, primordials, named monsters and powerful NPCs.
More setting details on Bael Tu'rath, both historical and current.

What I would NOT like to see in a BoVD 4e...
Player options like races, classes, paragon paths or epic destinies for evil PCs (put those in related DDI articles online if you must).
An encyclopedic treatment of real world evils that are included because they need to be there for the books to be "complete" rather than because they have any relevance to the "evil" one would normally associate with a game of D&D. Example: Outre sexual practices. I don't spend my gaming time sitting around with other 30-40 year old guys fantasizing about and playing out sexual encounters (especially kinky and/or non-consensual ones). I don't think most games do. A whole book (or even a portion of one) dedicated to such niche (and frankly, creepy) aspects of the hobby seems like a huge waste of resources and a really bad idea.
"Horror" or "Evil"-themed monsters. Monsters are as scary or horrific as the DM makes them. Putting them in an "evil"-themed book and giving their powers gross-sounding names isn't going to make monsters any more monstrous.
Advice on how to run an "evil" or "horror" themed campaign recycled from previous attempts. I've seen all this advice before and for the most part found it pretty lame. Give me good tools, not advice.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

Simply put, I'd like to see a book that is as useful for players as it is for GMs. The suggestions above on how to play a non-Good character and incorporate them into a game are great starts.

 

[the-golem]

What I'd like to see in a BoVD 4e...

NPC class templates for evil NPCs
Evil races for evil NPCs
Lots of evil rituals with suggestions for plot hooks and related skill challenges.
Lots of evil magic items with backstory and suggestions for plot hooks and how to use them in the game without just handing them to the PCs at the end of a fight.
New rules for evil rituals and how to make flavorful use of components, aid another and related rules in the context of evil casters.
Lots of new diseases with detailed disease tracks.
More campaign setting and flavor details on evil deities, primordials, named monsters and powerful NPCs.

Most of this. I'm the kind of guy that likes alot of fluff in his books. If it's just crunchy stuff, well that's what i have a DDI subscription for.

I'd like to see nice backstory writeups for some of the more "common" horror-themed monsters. Take abominations for example. Er, let me rephrase: Take "flesh golems" that look so gruesome, commoners would take one glimpse at it and run screaming in the other direction.

I'd like to see, in fluff fashion, what rituals and "ingredients" would be needed to create a flesh-golem, complete with all sorts of anatomical sketches.

If it could have existed as a book in Dr. Frankenstein's laboratory, throw it in the BoVD.

Haha, I'm rambling.

 

[Jhaelen]

What do you want in the 4e Book of Vile Darkness?

Nothing! If it's anything like the 3e version I'll pass. The whole premise of an 'EEEEEEeeeeeevil' source book strikes me as ludicrous. Not my cup of tea at all.

 

[Insight]

I remember hearing from one source or another that this book is supposedly penned by Vecna. How amazing would it be if the book was really more of a journal of sorts, a tour of Vecna's rise to godhood, personal narrative not unlike Iggwilv in the Demonomicon but a little more elaborate, taking us through his story, stopping points along the way detailing crunch. It begins with his lowliest days and giving guides/inspirations/crunch/flavor for Heroic! There is so much just in that alone: the morality of the material world, how magic can be evil, the warlock debate, being an evil character amidst good PCs, then specific places/items/powers Vecna visited and the villains he met, bested, or was burned by on his way to powerful wizard.

THEN we hit Paragon, when Vecna has become a powerful wizard in search of lichdom, and we visit all the villains/locales etc etc he encountered to get there, in detail, crunch wise touching more on communion with planar entities, the process of becoming a lich, attracting followers of evil bent, influencing more powerful people.

THEN Epic, where Vecna is a lich looking for godhood, and all the planar sites he visits, all the artifacts he steals/destroys, the villainous archdevils/demons/fey/dragons he bests or tricks or makes accords with, and talks about the dark and selfish road to godhood for PCs, the establishment of personal cults and religions, rituals for taking the souls of powerful slain foes, creation of evil artifacts, and so on.

Yeah, a totally amazing framework like that would sell me in an instant. It's really the best of both worlds. On the one hand, you're appealing to the older editions via the Vecna framework, but you're also giving us something new in the specific journey he took from wizard to god, and with 4e crunch to support it.

I like the above as a FRAMEWORK for the "fluff" of the new BoVD. It needs to have more than fluff, though. If WotC puts out a book with JUST the above, it ought to be a coffee table book and not something targeted for the game itself.

But, that said, I like the idea of having chapters open with some Vecna backstory (or some other villain's backstory) and then commence with the game mechanics or plot idea material. So, let's say Chapter One: True Evil starts with a story about how Vecna became a lich. After that, the chapter discusses plot ideas, hooks, or even full tier-by-tier rundowns for an evil campaign (I believe WoTC has printed these tier-by-tier rundowns in the DMG2 and maybe elsewhere). Chapter Two: Evil Origins starts with a story of Vecna corrupting someone (Kas?) and then the chapter continues with some sort of backgrounds for evil characters, evil organizations, and so forth.