D&D 5E Boosting Sorcerers, Focus: Fun (+thread)

[neogod22]

First of all, if you want to be able to post your opinion and to be taken seriously, then you need to take the criticism too. Don't come here or anywhere and say "don't post if you don't agree with me" because it makes you sound like a whiner.

That being said, have to ask you, did you read XGtE, and TCoE? I think what they did with the subclasses in those books were proletty good. So, I'm going to suggest they have seen the problem stems from the lack of spells and lack of things to do with Metamagic. I think the Warlock also suffers with the lack of spells. The fix for warlock is a little easier where you can have them gain the bonus spells automatically instead of them being options. The sorcerer however, the newer subclasses are fine. But to truly fix them, they need more things to do with their metamagic points, whether it's get a short list of spells they can cast with them, or just subclass abilities that allow to use metamagic unique to the subclass. The newer subclasses does these things, and i think it works.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

My hot take:

To make the sorcerers really distinct, I'd take the old UA mystic class, refluff it a bit, plug the sorcerers archetypes of the class chassis and voilà! With a few mechanical tweaks (d6 HD, no armors, a little less disciplines etc), it would make for a fun, distinct and powerful sorcerer class. Let metamagics be spellcasters' feats for those who want them.

 

[TwoSix]

3) As I do believe sorcerers should pretty much be using metamagic on almost every spell they cast (since that is what defines them as a sorcerous spellcaster rather than any other spellcaster)... I also believe sorcery points should refresh on a short rest. Now if this seems like it could become overkill at higher levels when the sorcerer does in fact have a lot of points... let us not forget that this point should be going hand-in-hand with Point 1... where the sorcerer should have a constrained thematic spell list. So it is up to the DM to curate said spell list such that its not the exact same three spells buffed with the exact same metamagic each and every round over and over and over because those three options are the best of the best of the best.

I like pretty much everything here; my only change would be that if SP refresh on a short rest, they shouldn't be allowed to be traded in for more slots. The focus should be on casting potent, metamagic enhanced spells, not on being a high-volume spellcaster. (Let's leave that in 3e where it belongs.)

I'd also favor giving them an even more tightly themed spell list (like 5-7 spells per level), but letting them swap every long rest (like cleric/druid).

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

oh, one thing I do in my games:

- I give the sorcerer more spell slots per day, meaning that they can A) use the supplemental slots to generate more spell points aka more metamagics or B) just cast more spells in a day.

I dont like the idea that a sorcerer wanting to use its class' main features more than a few time needs to cast less spells in a day than a wizard, or if they want to cast as many spells, they need to forgo the use of their features.

 

[DEFCON 1]

First of all, if you want to be able to post your opinion and to be taken seriously, then you need to take the criticism too. Don't come here or anywhere and say "don't post if you don't agree with me" because it makes you sound like a whiner.

Except that this thread isn't asking for opinions... it is asking for specific help.

And it is bad form to purposefully come into a thread NOT to help when its been asked for but instead TELL the person that the help is unnecessary. What exactly are you trying to do by doing that? Be a threadcrapping jerk if you ask me.

People do not need to post in every thread that they disagree with. And this is especially true with these (+) threads, that are created specifically NOT to argue the point, but to accept that the point is true for the sake of this exercise, and how can it be built upon.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Every sorcerer PC should have their own specific spell list crafted by the DM based upon the Origin or theme. Spells should come from across all the class lists to craft the most applicable spell list for the sorcerer, but only maybe 8-12 spells per spell level. The reason for this of course being that you remove from all sorcerers the exact same spells that appear on every list and invariably get chosen and cast all the time regardless of Origin or theme. It does not good to have a "Storm Sorcerer" that throws fireball after fireball because fireball is the best 3rd level spell in the game.

I like that.

I think what would work is to have the sorcerer, when gaining access to a new spell level, automatically knows 2 spells (18 spells known at 17th level) taken from any list, but there's no ''sorcerer spell list''.

Sure the table's munchkin gonna create a sorcerer with all the best spells taken from all the spell list without regard for theme and esthetic, but I think that even a caster that has access to the 18 best spells in the game would not be game breaking...it is already called a wizard

 

[DEFCON 1]

I like pretty much everything here; my only change would be that if SP refresh on a short rest, they shouldn't be allowed to be traded in for more slots. The focus should be on casting potent, metamagic enhanced spells, not on being a high-volume spellcaster. (Let's leave that in 3e where it belongs.)

I'd also favor giving them an even more tightly themed spell list (like 5-7 spells per level), but letting them swap every long rest (like cleric/druid).

That is a very good point. In truth, my point #3 would really be to swap the Sorcerer over from Spell Slots to Spell Points and add the Sorcery Points into that pool. Then keep the refresh on its normal Long Rest. That way there is just a single pool of points used to cast spells enhanced by metamagic. It makes it easier for the player to see exactly how their pool of points is shaping up throughout the day, and how they can best use it-- less spells with more metamatic, more low-level spells without metamagic to conserve points, etc.

And really... using Spell Points would go hand-in-hand with my belief of how the Sorcerer should be distinct from other casters. The Warlock shouldn't be the only "full caster" with a different mechanical spell paradigm, the Sorcerer should be that way too. And having just a large pool of Spell Points to spend however they see fit would be my ideal way of doing things.

 

[TwoSix]

That is a very good point. In truth, my point #3 would really be to swap the Sorcerer over from Spell Slots to Spell Points and add the Sorcery Points into that pool. Then keep the refresh on its normal Long Rest. That way there is just a single pool of points used to cast spells enhanced by metamagic. It makes it easier for the player to see exactly how their pool of points is shaping up throughout the day, and how they can best use it-- less spells with more metamatic, more low-level spells without metamagic to conserve points, etc.

And really... using Spell Points would go hand-in-hand with my belief of how the Sorcerer should be distinct from other casters. The Warlock shouldn't be the only "full caster" with a different mechanical spell paradigm, the Sorcerer should be that way too. And having just a large pool of Spell Points to spend however they see fit would be my ideal way of doing things.

Spell points can work when they go along with a tightly constrained spell list; I'm somewhat wary of them otherwise. Some low level spells are problematic if they can be spammed (i.e. shield).

 

[DEFCON 1]

Spell points can work when they go along with a tightly constrained spell list; I'm somewhat wary of them otherwise. Some low level spells are problematic if they can be spammed (i.e. shield).

Yep. Fluff and story-wise especially... not every Origin should give a sorcerer the use of shield, or fireball, or polymorph, etc. There is absolutely no reason a Shadow Sorcerer should be casting lightning bolts or a Divine Soul sorcerer using Evard's Black Tentacles (not that I think most Divine Soul sorcerers would actually cast Black Tentacles, but you get the point.)

In my last Eberron game I had a player who selected an Aberrant dragonmark who wanted it to be about time magic (this was before Wildemount came out with all its time-related magic stuff). We decided to enhance it by making him a chronomantic sorcerer and I did in fact curate a specific spell list that only had spells on it that were space-time specific or whose mechanics could be refluffed to be time-related (renaming a lot of the spells in the process). And then the player picked the spells they wanted Known from the list like normal.

So for instance, ray of frost (which slows a target down) became ray of dilation, (refluffed such that rather than slowing down from being frozen, the target gets caught in a small time dilation that slows them down). And augury became precognition, where the PC could look slightly into future timelines and discover if certain upcoming actions would be weal or woe. And this is what I mean when I say the sorcerer spell list can be curated across all the spells in the game-- there's no reason why the mechanics of augury have to remain cleric-specific. Especially considering there are many clerics whose domains make it such they probably shouldn't have access to augury themselves either.

(And now that I've mentioned it... I'm also a proponent of making domain-specific spell lists for clerics too. While the bonus spells are an okay way to give a bit of theme to a cleric... there are so many spells in the cleric list that are "off-theme" to whatever their domain is that it often feels like every cleric is the same regardless of the domain they are. Because again... there are certain spells that are just better than others that always seem to be prepared, even if it makes little sense for the domain.)

 

[Bitbrain]

My opinion, after some months of thinking about this:

1st
Font of Magic
At 2nd level, you tap into a deep wellspring of magic within yourself. This wellspring is represented by metamagic, which allows you to twist your spells to suit your needs.
You gain access to a number of metamagic options equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of 1).
You can use only one metamagic option on your turn, unless otherwise noted (empowered spell).
This feature replaces both the original font of magic and metamagic features.


2nd
Each sub-class should gain a once-per-short-rest feature at 3rd level, which increases to 2x short rest at 6th level, and 3x short rest at 18th level.
In the case of the Draconic bloodline sorcerer, it should be a bonus action breath weapon that deals damage equal to 3d6 + your Sorcerer level.