Booting a Player (and setting a good example?)

[toucanbuzz]

I've been gaming for decades, so having to boot a player who isn't working out isn't totally new and neither is a thread about it.

But, it's been awhile, and the guy tries to be nice off table. I've been blessed with a good crew and good friends over the years, so I'm questioning myself and wanted a fresh set of eyes on the situation.

The Causes:

(a) PLAYER has been observed by 2 others fudging his initiative rolls the last 2 sessions during a 5 session campaign. I'd been suspicious but I put a lot of trust in my players to play honest. I've had two gamers in the past who fudged rolls and one lied about his current hit points. In both instances, other players also noticed and I was told once either "he leaves or I leave." So there's perspective why I feel this isn't an issue we can talk through.

(b) Just found PLAYER is running the campaign with another group and is acting [with subtlety] on that knowledge. But it's obvious to me. Other players have said this is ruining their fun, including the "reveals" and surprises. And, I just learned he pushed the party into a TPK based on his belief from the other campaign they could take the monster. But, I run my own game, and his knowledge was wrong. He revealed this to another gamer, and the others are now pissed. He's also ruined a few foreshadowing and "puzzle solving" moments, which are summoning flashbacks of an old gamer who would go to the game store and read ahead.

(c) PLAYER isn't a team player and in a battle fled to save his own skin rather than defend others. This is a sore point for two of my gamers. A couple years ago we tried a game with a guy who played selfish characters. One of my gamers got so upset he cursed in the middle of the game store and walked out, which never happens. I think they're seeing it again and don't want it.

(d) PLAYER loves to meta-game, including telling others what the monsters are and mechanics behind everything mystical that happens. For example, I weave a fearsome narrative about the strange monsters of vine and blood that tear themselves from the foliage, stumbling through the forest as if drunken. He tells the party what they are and assures them they can take them based on his meta-game knowledge.

But...I don't think he actively is trying to be a jerk. He's new to the area and plays online, so table play is relatively novel. This is where I feel like a heel.

Still, I have one free afternoon where my wife agrees to watch the kids so my friends and I can game, so I'm not inclined to use my free time to put up with this or rehab, if that were possible. Our newest gamer friend asked if confronting him would do any good. My gut and past experience say no, it won't help, and I should tell him we're filling our open slot with someone else rather than drag this out.

Am I too jaded?

 

[Lillika]

The real question is have you talked to this person about this behavior and given them a chance to change, or even an ultimatum. I'm never a fan of giving someone the boot without allowing them the chance to see how their actions effect others and given them a chance to change. If such a chat has happened and they know that they will not be in the group if they do a, b, c or d, then go ahead and drop the boot. But if no such conversation has occurred I would not kick.

 

[Hjorimir]

I'm with Lillika on this. If you want maturity out of your players you need to show maturity as the DM and that means at least attempting to talk through your issues. Yes, such conversations can be hard and contentious, but we all know that it's the right thing to do. However, I don't recommend having this conversation on game night. Get that player one-on-one. Go grab lunch or a coffee. Talk with them and make sure it's a two-way conversation. Ask them why they do certain things and try to understand that. Then see if you cannot come to some reasonable compromise. If you can't, agree to disagree and un-vite them to your game. At least you will know that you tried.

 

[Blue]

Be mature, talk first. Could be hard line "you're ruining other's fun, that needs to stop now. and zero tolerance for cheating, fudge dice like initiative again and you're not playing under me again." Could be soft, "look, you're fun to be with but there are somethings that are making it less fun to game with..." as long as it's not wishy-washy and generic "hey whole group, if there's cheating there will be consequences"

Always good, wish I could claim it as my own work:

 

[Cyrinishad]

I've been gaming for decades, so having to boot a player who isn't working out isn't totally new and neither is a thread about it.

I don't think he actively is trying to be a jerk...

...Our newest gamer friend asked if confronting him would do any good. My gut and past experience say no, it won't help, and I should tell him we're filling our open slot with someone else rather than drag this out.

Am I too jaded?

This kind of stuff is always tough, but I tend to be pro-confrontation in these situations... I like giving people a chance to change, and hopefully own their behavior, especially when you don't think this player is deliberately being a jerk. If someone doesn't know they're off-base they can't possibly change their behavior. Also, if your newbie gamer is asking you to confront it, I would definitely confront all of these issues... even if the result matches your past experience, it will help your newbie gamer understand where you're coming from on it (which may end up being the most positive result).

But, there's always a first time for things... maybe this time is the time that a person will make a genuine change in their behavior.

The causes you listed would definitely bother me & my table as well (and I would need to confront the issues directly or my players would feel like I was abdicating my responsibility as the DM to host & referee the game appropriately)... My thoughts on the causes you outlined are as follows:

(a) This one might be the easiest to fix, and doesn't necessarily require anybody to be called out for fudging their rolls... All players roll into a Dice Box in the middle of the table, OR require other players to call out each other's dice rolls... If that won't fly at your table, then it's confrontation time for "fudging".

(b) This is probably the toughest to fix, because even someone with the best intentions can't escape the burden of fore-knowledge if they've already played or run an adventure... However, if he's just making foolish uninformed meta-game choices, maybe it's up to the other PCs to constantly presume that this PCs ideas will lead to misfortune for the party... Not exactly an ideal situation, but obviously continuing to modify your game to make it fully your own will be necessary.

(c) This is up to the PCs to fix, by booting his character (not the player) from the adventuring group... It is also incumbent upon the DM to firmly establish the expectation of heroic cooperation by all PCs at the table... Perhaps have a horrific fate await those that flee (as always, the first rule for any PC in D&D should be "Don't split up the party")...

(d) This tends not to be an issue at my table, because my players are aware that in any given encounter, the monsters may or may not have the standard abilities listed... I modify monsters all the time, because my long-time players tend to know the "standard" versions of things, and they like being surprised... I would advise the player in question against making Meta-game assumptions about encounters, and probably add/change abilities to the monsters for a while...

If the poor game etiquette continues... oh well, at least you can tell your newbie gamer that you tried before you give the problem-player the boot.

 

[pogre]

I heard you have been running this campaign at another table. That's great, but I think you will have to step out of this campaign. I wondered why you always knew what the monsters were and had so much insight on the puzzles. No hard feelings, I just think it is for the best.

That's what I would say. It's not your job to reform a problem player - get somebody new.

 

[TheSword]

You can take a person from 90% to the 100%. But you can never get a person at 50% any higher than 60%. You may be an amazing coach but if anyone thinks their conversations are that good they’re flattering themselves.

By all means have the conversation, but in my experience they won’t accept you point of view or will just deny it ever happens at all. Though it will at least make you feel like you gave him a last chance. Best luck to you.

 

[Harzel]

I can understand your pessimism about whether talking will do any good, but I agree with the others that you should give it a shot. The fact that he "tries to be nice off table" is at least a small reason for hope.

However, that is a considerable list of sins that he has compiled in a relatively short time. I am not by any means an expert on these things, but my gut would be that you'll have to walk a fine line between letting him know that there are a number of separate issues with his behavior, and not overwhelming him during the initial moments of the conversation.

One thing that you might do is to try first to get him to talk about things that he might already realize are making things go sideways, as in your item (b). That might give you an entree into at least a couple of the items.

More generally, I think you need to make sure that at some point you describe the problematic behaviors, say very clearly that they are unacceptable (but see comments on item (d) below), and tell him that if any of them happen again he will be uninvited from the group. If you want to go to the extra effort of helping him see a way to modify his behavior, then to me it seems that each of the items may need a somewhat different kind of conversation.

(a) I can't be sure how this happens for others, but thinking back about the times that I can recall doing things like this myself as a kid, it seems like it was very impulsive, not something planned or considered in advance. Also something that is embarrassing to be called on, because everybody knows it's wrong. Probably the one that he is most likely to deny. I don't know, it seems.... hard. The only probably-not-very-helpful advice I have is that I don't think I would lead with it.

(b) Has some things in common with (d) in that he needs to realize that what he thinks he knows is not always going to be correct in your world. And that creates a no-win situation: if he is wrong, he gets the party in trouble; if he is right, he is spoiling other peoples' fun. But really, I would heavily encourage him to just quit one group or the other - playing two instances of the same adventure at once is just asking for trouble (unless you are really good at compartmentalizing, which he clearly isn't).

(c) Maybe walk him through the consequences of doing this. What does he really think about the possible outcomes? Side note: with players who don't know each other, maybe the acceptability of selfish PCs is something to be addressed in session 0?

(d) On this item, I'm inclined to pushback a bit on the notion that the problem lies solely with the player. Knowing about a monster is not necessarily metagaming - maybe his PC knows about the creatures. Have you clarified with the group what the assumptions are about what the PCs know about the world? I know that having something exposed that you intended to be mysterious and horrifying can be disappointing, but I've never found it rewarding to force the separation of player vs. PC knowledge about the world. Reskinning monsters can be an alternative. OTOH, PLAYER needs to know clearly that what he thinks he knows could be wrong.

YMMV.

Good luck; I hope things work out.

Amusing post-script: The "Similar Threads" section includes this one: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?175963-Non-Booting-PC . Yay for keyword matching.

 

[jasper]

Ok C and D are table differences. B. He is cheating. Boot him especially since this led to TPK. A. CHEATING BIG TIME. Don't be a wimp and use a dice box. Because now you are punishing OTHER PLAYERS and NOT THE CHEATER.
If you have done a session 0 or have talk to him already just boot him. If you have not have the TALK, talk with him. And then boot him on next time he cheats. Even in the middle of combat. Tell Jasper. Bye, hit road, you are not welcome at this table, and we see you at Taco Tuesday.

 

[iserith]

Even if you do ultimately give him the boot, I recommend telling him why. You're doing him no favors by giving him an excuse. By telling him why he's no longer welcome, he has the opportunity to think about his behavior and change. It might be uncomfortable in the moment and perhaps quite unwelcome, but ultimately it's the best way to help him learn to be better.