Born on another plane, are you an outsider?

[kenc]

I need to give you a little background before you answer this question.

In my campaign the way to achieve divinity is to find or take a genesis stone. All the planes have at their heart a genesis stone. This is the corner stone of the plane. Once you reach uberness and can take or find a genesis stone. Once you activate it you create a sub plane all your own. This plane starts out small but grows with your power and the number of beings that migrate there. After X years (have not defined this yet) you achieve divine status and join the ranks of the gods. However during this time you and the genesis stone are vulnerable to capture/destruction. See there are other forces who also want to be divine beings and taking your stone is an easy way to do that if you do not have a lot of powerful allies to help. There are rules against major gods interfering in this process only mortals can vie for genesis stones.

Ok so on to the question. New campaign characters are the children of some very powerful characters one of whom is in possession of a genesis stone. They were all born on the sub plane of this wizard (who is not yet divine). I bet you can see this coming .

A powerful evil NPC launches an attack to gain the genesis stone and the children are sent to the prime plane for protection (thus starts their adventure/career).

Are these children outsiders? Please post thoughts. I am unable to come up with a satisfactory answer and need some brain storming input.

Thanks.

 

[Pyrex]

That depends on their parents. If at least one of their parents are of Type: 'Outsider' then the children will most likely be outsiders.

If both parents are still Type: 'Humanoid' then the children will not be outsiders.

However, as the Prime Material is not their native plane, while on the prime they gain the 'Extraplanar' descriptor which makes them vulnerable to spell such as Dismissal which target extraplanar creatures.

 

[Zappo]

Being an outsider or not in 3E seems to only be a function of your race, though some classes eventually turn you into an outsider. Given that, I think that they are the children of a normal mortal and therefore are normal mortals.

Back in 2E, though, you were native of the plane you were born on (duh), which meant that you were extraplanar everywhere else. Planescape had lots and lots of extraplanar humans, dwarves, whatever.

Both solutions make sense. Either they are not outsiders because they are human, or they are outsiders because they are native of another plane. Your choice.

 

[Iron Sheep]

Are these children outsiders? Please post thoughts. I am unable to come up with a satisfactory answer and need some brain storming input.

Thanks.

I'd say no, but they would have the extraplanar subtype while on the material plane.

The SRD says:

An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

So unless they have inherited some of the "essence" of this sub-plane, they are not outsiders. The outsider type might be appropriate of they were children of characters who are in the process of becoming divine (such as the wizard in your example), but in this case it's probably better to have them be an appropriate planetouched or half-something race.

I guess another way to consider this would be: are their parents currently considered mortals, or outsiders? If the parents are mortals, they are extraplanar mortals; if the parents are outsiders, they are extraplanar outsiders.

Regards,
Corran

 

[kenc]

However, as the Prime Material is not their native plane,

There is the crux of the problem.

What defines your native plane? Being concieved there? Being born there? If two humans concieve a baby and give birth on the plane of fire is their child fire subtype?

This is what I am flip-floping on.

 

[Arnwyn]

What defines your native plane? Being concieved there? Being born there? If two humans concieve a baby and give birth on the plane of fire is their child fire subtype?

The answer is, rather unsatisfyingly I'm sure: "If you want." (It all depends on your particular cosmology.)

I, however, would not do it this way. If two humans conceive a baby on the Plane of Fire (or any other Outer or Inner Plane), the child is still of the Humanoid (Human) type and sub-type, but would also have the [Extraplanar] sub-type.

 

[Iron Sheep]

What defines your native plane? Being concieved there? Being born there?

This is really your call, and depends on your cosmology. Any answer is reasonable. Personally, I would say that the answer should depend on when, where and how someone gets their soul (or equivalent).

I would say that if someone gets their soul at birth, then it's the place of birth which matters. If someone gets their soul at conception, then it's the place of conception which matters. If it's at some other point, then it's that point which matters. Without getting into real-world religion, any possibility could be made to work in-game.

Of course, another possibility would be that a child's soul is a mixture of its parent's souls, and inherits their home plane as its home plane. But then you need to decide what happens with children of couples from different planes.

A final possibility is that maybe you can change your home plane based on your actions or desires: wherever your heart and soul truly considers home is your home plane. Maybe you can perform a ritual to make a particular plane your home. Presumably fallen celestials and risen fiends can change their home planes somehow?

If two humans concieve a baby and give birth on the plane of fire is their child fire subtype?

Probably not. But if you want your universe to work this way, it wouldn't be unreasonable. Maybe growing up in an intrinsically fire-based environment confers this magically?

Regards,
Corran

 

[Olive]

It's very clear:

At birth you are an outsider if one fo your parents is. If two normal humans travel to the Elemental Plane of Fire, and you are concieved and born their you are not an elemental or an outsider, you are a human. You're not a [fire] creature or anything else.

However, if you are on a plane other than the one you are born on, then you gain the extraplanar subtype. My prime born PC is extraplanar on the Elemental Plane of Fire. My Elemental Fire born human is just a human on the Fire plane, but [extraplanar] on the Prime.

Do it how you like, but that is the rules.

In temrs of when you determin your native plane, there are no rules, but in this case weren't the kids concieved and born off prime? So they're extraplanar.

 

[pawsplay]

Given that a number of Magical Beasts are native to the Outer Planes, the official type answer would appear to be that you can, indeed, be human or humanoid and Extraplanar.

 

[Nifft]

IMC, yes. The soul enters the body when an infant draws its first breath.

Wherever it is when it draws that breath determines whence the soul is drawn.

-- N

PS: Printed on all Cubic Gates: "The Midwife-General Recommends Against Travel To The Abyss By Pregnant Women"