Bothered About Disposable Dragons (B.A.D.D.) Membership Drive

[Neqroteqh]

You can count the Neqromancer in for this one- dragons have gotten the shaft for too long!

In part, I blame Dragonlance. Although the Dragonlance saga was the easily the best epic adventure ever made for D&D (well, not that there have been many...), you are quickly faced with dragon overload (especially in the Chronicles novels- an army of hundreds of red dragons descends upon a city- and it isn't wiped off the map in a fiery holocaust? You'd think that those Chaotic Evil serpents would have reduced Tarsis to ash...)

Yet Dragons were not only killing machines, their dark cunning was legendary especially that of Glaurung, the father of dragons, capable of destroying entire armies, yet he was able to trap Turin Turambar into the net of his intrigues which resulted with this loser sleeping with his own sister! The coward Turambar killed him during sleep, yet even while dying he was able to cause the death of both Turin and his sister Niniel, with nothing but poisonous words!

Now Melkor, I wouldn't go referring to Turambar as a loser, especially when he's destined to kick your rear when the great end comes....

 

[Monte At Home]

Beyond the Veil

Hello fellow dragon-loving brethren,

Wolfspider invited me to post a bit about this Atlas Games module here. It plays upon the idea of the "heroes going to slay yet another dragon menacing yet another village" cliche.

SPOILERS AHEAD!








The black dragon in question is a ghost, only he doesn't totally realize that he's a ghost. The PCs going in may be ready for physical attacks and breath weapons, but they won't be ready for an incorporeal dragon with a gaze attack and an ability-draining touch.

Later in the adventure, the PCs get a chance to confront the dragon on more normal "dragon" terms, but even then, the dragon's lair has been designed with all the proper advantages in mind--the place is literally made of acid, which of course he can move through easily, but the PCs cannot. It teems with guardians and servants that work for the dragon at his beck and call. It's a encounter that no player will ever forget--just as ever encounter with a dragon should be.


And I'd be honored to be considered a member of BADD!

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Re: Beyond the Veil

And I'd be honored to be considered a member of BADD!

Monte, you bad, bad man!

I think you etched your name into the charter with the moathouse, you sadist!

Yours,

a Survivor

 

[Wolfspider]

Thank you for posting, Monte! I'm honored that you would join in the discussion.

Your adventure immediately grabbed my attention, especially when a review noted the unique nature of the dragon's lair. Bravo!

 

[quexly]

A bit late, but I too stand with those who would have dragons using PC's for dental floss.
Heck, I'm for truly difficult adventures no matter what the beast.

....Though my group does rate me as a suicidal PC....


BUT DEADLY IS FUN!

 

[arwink]

My groups faced three dragons and we've run like buggery every time (well, twice. The third one got hit by a flying PC travelling on terminal velocity on the elemental plane of air. The Pc was reduced to jelly, the dragon shrugged. After that, everyone else ran and I rolled up a new character).

I'm selfish enough to work off the theory that if my PC's get tanked, everyone's PC's should be tanked.

Count me in.

Arwink
-Frequent Dragon Munchie.

 

[gubaru]

First, I want to say that I'll join the organization, but only on the agreement that the charter include words to the effect that we are about making OLD dragons memorable fights, and not just about giving all dragons unrealistic knowledge and intelligence for their age category.

I think that's more or less the general sentiment. I'm not interested in how to have juvenile dragons take out demigods but I am interested in making dragons one of the toughest fights, if not the toughest fight, a party will face at a given CR.

 

[Hatchling Dragon]

Now that is what I am talking about - people getting upset about a WYRMLING being 'too easy' to defeat in combat? The damn thing is still in diapers, has an int of like 6 or 7, and you still don't want the players to have the experience of defeating it?

Strange, even being the person that wrote the post you refer to I still don't remember saying anything about wanting a Wyrmling to defeat/kill my group. I said I didn't think I was (or am yet, let's get those tips going folks) up to the task of making it a memorable fight. You know, tough and something not likely to be forgotten when next they hear of a Dragon.

As for the critter 'still being in diapers', couldn't you apply a very similar label to the adventuring group? They're barely out of thier apprentiships, and this is likly thier first real adventure. Thus I believe they should have the Fear of Wyrms (or at least the seed of it) planted in them by an appropriate-sized Dragon.

Currently I'd barely manage a 'you walk in and see a dragon, it attacks, roll initative'. This is only going to promote the idea of Dragons as 'Just another monster'. While I can come up with tactics and what-not that'll make Kobolds a challange well beyond thier level I just can't seem to dredge up the same inventiveness for the more Scaly monsters

So, we all seem to like the idea, let's start sharing a few of the more interesting/devious/nasty tricks you've all come up with to make Dragons more challanging/frightening. Example: In Forge of Fury they suggest a few tactics that I just would never have thought of on my own, yet they make the dragon in that module very dangerous indeed!

Hatchling Dragon

 

[mythusmage]

I'm in. See the Walking with Dragonsseries at the Gaming Outpostsite for an early version of my take on dragons.

 

[reapersaurus]

Reapersaurus:

And I'm the one who needs to refrain from inflammatory remarks? Puhlease. If you'd care for me to ever read any of your posts again, please try to refrain from insulting me in them. I will do the same for you. Until then, good day sir.

Look, James, what do you want me to do?
Refer to your dragon-encounters as GOOD ideas?

I thought awhile before using the adjective of "pathetic" when referring to your encounters, and i really think it's the best description.
It is not a personal attack, and is not flaming you.

It is a well-thought-out opinion based on MUCH MUCH reading and questions and clarifications.
I have spent hours reading about how you have had your dragons act in your campaign, and there is no other way to sugar-coat it, James.
You play dragons as pathetic mockeries of the majestic, devious, and powerful creatures they should be.

James: Let me ask you this:
WHY do you think this thread is here?
WHY do you think so many people have flocked to Wolf's effort here?
Maybe because they've been seeing too many examples just like yours.

I (and many others) have been as clear as i (we) can in pointing out where I (at least) believe you have made many mistakes in your dragons' behaviors.
The sapphire was the closest to a well-fought dragon, which really ended up dying becuase of the uber magic items you gave your players.

Oh - is saying "uber magic items" a flame as well?
It is the best way to describe a Staff of the Magi, a Holy Avenger, and that artifact dragon-control-thingy a 11th level party somehow procured.

I'm actually surprised that Altalazar (sp?) would even care to say he wants dragons to not be Disposable, since he was the one that thinks that all dragons are solitary creatures who really couldn't learn much until they get the requisite INT score to make them smart enough to know common adventurer tricks.
(Yes, I'm paraphrasing massively, but i think it's an accurate representation)

You all can see their approaches on this thread, using their own words, if you care:
Continuation of James' Dragon-Killing campaign