Bothered About Disposable Dragons (B.A.D.D.) Membership Drive

[CRGreathouse]

Quite an interesting group, I'll say.

While I'm not ready for membership, I'd be glad to help with the organization when I'm able. The real challenge is to use a dragon with low CR to challenge (and possibly defeat) the party. Run properly, a dragon with CR 1 less then the average level can kill them all, if you're a sadistic, munchkin DM.

I submit the following to the members of BADD:

Fiendish juvenile white dragon: CR 7; Medium-size Dragon (Cold); HD 12d12+24; hp 102; Init +0; Spd 60 ft, fly 200 ft (poor), swim 60 ft, burrow 30 ft; AC 21 (+11 natural); Melee bite +15 (1d8+3), 2 claws +13 (1d6+1), 2 wings +13 (1d4+1); SA breath weapon, smite good; SQ blindsight, cold subtype, DR 10/+3, immunities, keen senses, icewalking, fire resistance 20, SR 24; AL CE; SV Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +8; Str 17, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8.
Skills and Feats: Bluff +11, Listen +12, Search +11, Sense Motive +12, Spot +12; Hover, Multiattack, Power Attack, Cleave.
SA - Breath Weapon (Su): Cone of cold, 30 feet long, every 1d4 rounds; damage 4d6, Reflex half DC 18.
SA - Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day - fog cloud.
SA - Smite Good (Su): Once per day, this dragon adds +12 damage to a single melee attack.
SQ - Blindsight (Ex): Dragons can ascertain creatures by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibrations and other environmental clues); this dragon's range is 120 feet.
SQ - Keen Senses (Ex): Dragons can see four times as well humans in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. This one also has darkvision with a range of 400 feet.
SQ - Immunities (Ex): Immune to sleep and paralysis.
SQ - Icewalking (Ex): This ability works like spider climb, but the surfaces must be icy. It is always in effect.
SQ - Cold Subtype (Ex): Cold immunity, double damage from fire except on a successful save.

Fire resistance 20 really helps the dragon to avoid the near-instant kill of coordinated fire attacks (fireball and flame strike or a double firebal). You can remove cleave and replace it with either Improved Initiative (or Lightning Reflexes), if you're so inclined; I think that the benefit of tearing apart the rogue or wizard and still continuing the attack is worthwhile for the sheer effect.

Here's a sample combat:

Dragon: Wakes from sleep due to the noise of the party 400 feet away. Closes his eyes and pretends to sleep again.
Group (pre-buffed): Sneaks up to melee range, wizard 100 feet behind the rest.
Wizard: Double-fireballs the "sleeping" dragon (haste) as the rest of the party delays.
Dragon: Takes no damage, either from SR (24!) or fire resistance (combined with a fair chance to save). Flies past the party to the wizard, biting (Power Attack?).
Rogue: Shoots at the dragon and closes 30 feet
Cleric: Runs up to the dragon
Fighter: Shoots at the dragon and closes 30 feet
Dragon: Takes no damage due to DR.
Wizard: Moves back 5 feet and casts phantasmal killer and enervation.
Dragon: Minimally affected by the two previous spells (SR & save vs. phantasmal killer), takes a full attack on the poor wizard, killing it in three attacks (Cleaving into the cleric). The dragon proceeds to attack the cleric with both wings, using a smite good on one.
Party: Closes on dragon and damages it (to some degree).
Dragon: Attacks the already-wounded cleric, then moves 20 feet into the air and Hovers (obscuring the party's vision).
. . .

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'm actually surprised that Altalazar (sp?) would even care to say he wants dragons to not be Disposable, since he was the one that thinks that all dragons are solitary creatures who really couldn't learn much until they get the requisite INT score to make them smart enough to know common adventurer tricks.
(Yes, I'm paraphrasing massively, but i think it's an accurate representation)

You all can see their approaches on this thread, using their own words, if you care:
Continuation of James' Dragon-Killing campaign

Being just a wee bit inflamitory, are we Reaper?

You know, you have good points about James' campaign, but they tend to get lost in the rhetoric. Just let the facts speak for themselves - the magic items were especially telling. If it's as bad as you say it is (I didn't read the thread), it should be readily apparent from the facts.

 

[reapersaurus]

Being just a wee bit inflamitory, are we Reaper?

You know, you have good points about James' campaign, but they tend to get lost in the rhetoric. Just let the facts speak for themselves - the magic items were especially telling. If it's as bad as you say it is (I didn't read the thread), it should be readily apparent from the facts.

Ya, probably.
But if doesn't matter to James what facts are brought up.
He just goes on about how that's not the case.

And if rhetoric is going round by round, action by action and trying to help James see where he missed things, than I guess you'd have to call Wolf's thread here a messianic Crusade by comparison.
And its Altalazar's own words that speak volumes... (ran out of time to quote the part where he said dragons wouldn't learn about adventurers when they were younger.)
Altalazar - I forget - were you meaning that dragons wouldn't BOTHER learning about the threats to them as they grow up, or they wouldn't be ABLE to learn?

 

[Berandor]

Well, I suppose I'm in

When considering a dragon lair, I'm starting with the question:
If I had a million dollars, and then someone would go to my bank, get all the money, give it to me, and tell me that when 24h are over, everybody who wanted to could come and get my money, most certainly by killing me.

What would I do with the 24h to prepare?
Then I think of what I could do in a medieval magical world, with 50+ years to prepare...

Think of fake treasures, additional escape routes, beiting traps, a crumbling ceiling on the way to my "lair" (which is not my lair, of course), breath weapon slits in the wall, hidden caches and rooms, charmed helpers, dead end caverns (with weak end walls so I can burst through to surprise the intruders, or to flee), an underwater path to the real lair (so that pesky humans must swim through holding their breath maybe too long), or a path partially submerged (so that they can't move to full potential), and a possibility to cut my treasure off the lair (by crushing the ceiling, for example), should I need to flee without my gold.

Berandor

 

[Wolfspider]

Currently I'd barely manage a 'you walk in and see a dragon, it attacks, roll initative'. This is only going to promote the idea of Dragons as 'Just another monster'. While I can come up with tactics and what-not that'll make Kobolds a challange well beyond thier level I just can't seem to dredge up the same inventiveness for the more Scaly monsters

Ally the two groups! Dragons and kobolds seem to go together like chocolate and peanut butter....

 

[James McMurray]

Reapersaurs: as I said in the other thread, looks like we'll just not be agreeing any time soon. Oh well, life goes on. s for the items, in case you weren't paying attention, the staff is already gone, and the amulet soon will be. Of course, as soon as you bring up some actual facts, and not just your opinions, then I'll be more than happy to discuss whether it matters to me what facts are brought up. the only mistake I see that I made when the party fought the dragon was forgetting to cast shadow images on him, but I only just now even remembered he had that spell. Then again, the odds are better than 50/50 that the Sorceror's greater Dispel would have destroyed them anyway.

When you did go round by round, I had to come alogn behind you and point out things you had missed. Apparently you either hadn't read the whole post, or were conveniently only paying attention to those parts that you could easily attack.

Altazar: You're right, more than once Reaper and I have seen eye to eye, but we seem to have developed a natural tendency to disagree with each other so we lose those points. Again, life goes on.

Wolfspider: In the adventure in question, the dragon and the kobolds are at odds. The kobolds had the dragon captive trying to make it their mascot, and it escaped.

 

[Wolfspider]

Oh, I think I know the adventure you're talking about. Hmmmm.... let me give it some thought.

*ponders*

 

[James McMurray]

Not to mention the fact that its a wyrmling white, the weakest of all dragons. There's no real way for it to put up a truly awe-inspiring fight for a competent party of 1st elvel adventurers. After my party had beaten it, they suspected it might have been a draon, but then figured it couldn't be, because dragons are powerful, and it died in two rounds.

 

[Hatchling Dragon]

What would I do with the 24h to prepare? Then I think of what I could do in a medieval magical world, with 50+ years to prepare...

Think of fake treasures, additional escape routes, baiting traps, a crumbling ceiling on the way to my "lair" (which is not my lair, of course), breath weapon slits in the wall, hidden caches and rooms, charmed helpers, dead end caverns (with weak end walls so I can burst through to surprise the intruders, or to flee), an underwater path to the real lair (so that pesky humans must swim through holding their breath maybe too long), or a path partially submerged (so that they can't move to full potential), and a possibility to cut my treasure off the lair (by crushing the ceiling, for example), should I need to flee without my gold.

Now this is exactally what I was talking about. And the first line, about 'what I'd do if it were me' is something I wish I'd thought of, as putting things in real-world perspective seems to be oh-so-effective in getting a point across.

Just remind me, should I ever find myself in your world, never to mess with with one of your Wyrms. If I were to hear that our adventure was to culminate with a Party-Dragon battle I seriously think I'd promptly soil my armor and change careers. Sure I'm not as rich as I might be, but I'd rather live to enjoy my lesser pile of loot.

As to my Sunless Citadel adventure, the party was being very careful and retreating rather frequently. Thus not only did the Kobolds manage to reclaim the entire first floor, and thier 'pet' dragon, but were charging the PC's gold to return to the lower level to finish things up. I did nearly get a chance to use the suggestion of teaming them up, if not on the same terms implied above, but the group decided they really didn't need to take out their 'allies'.

One thing that might have helped there (ie: thier decision) was that they did remember there was a dragon backing the Kobolds now, and the group really had no idea how big it was. I also was 'getting caught' grinning evilly from time to time whenever they'd ask me if they should attack or not. I like to try psyching-out my group when I'm not ready to have them face something (ie: a dragon), I'm just trying to prepare for the day when they call my bluff and actually attack.

They're a new group and still ask me to tell them if they should or shouldn't do this or that. Eventually they should learn to not even bother, since I always tell them "That's not my job, it's entirely up to you what your character's are going to do, I just tell you the consequences."

Hatchling Dragon

 

[Darkness]

As one of the Rat Bastard DMs, joining BADD is the only course of action open to me here.