Bottom 5 D&D and D20 items

[Garmorn]

*nods* I understand. I do think if you give the book a chance, it might suprise you. Example, something like Taldock's Spell Inhibitor works well if you have dwarves and also like to surprise your players. Or another interesting spell, is for Paladins, Heart of Valor, works well when trying to overtake a large and powerful opponent. [/B]

I have decided to give the whole series a new try. The last time I was still learning the new system and was being very cautious about making changes to the basic stuff. I think the world will fit quite well into my Dragonstar campain.

 

[King_Stannis]

The real question is how much would you PAY for such a supplement? How many pages would you expect it to be? How large would each character's write up be? I imagine the character descriptions dominating the page with little mini-stat blocks (Com1, Craft (pottery) +3) or am I way off here?

Although I may not stop my wife from starting this book... I showed her King_Stannis' first post on the idea and she wanted to start. She loves the background characters. I just can't imagine people buying it as a PDF.

Love the title though Kludge.

Joe Mucchiello
Throwing Dice Games

I'd gladly pay $20 or so for a meaty book, no color, but sketches of each NPC. i'm thinking along the lines of those Call of Cthulu "headshots" they sprinkled in their later (pre D20) adventures.

i envisioned 2 npc's per page, joe. that includes a "headshot", 2 para bio, and a stat line IF APPLICABLE. in other words, ebeneezer, the 88 year old town drunk needs no stats! it would take a publisher with common sense like that. don't waste room on ebeneezer's useless stats, throw in another line about why he is a drunk and who in town is trying to save his soul by getting him to put down the bottle.

i'd also like a tiny checkbox to markoff once you use these suckers, too. perhaps a little room in the margins for some notes. the more i talk about this, the more i think this would be a huge hit with DM's. but it would have to be meaty, in other words if you buy this book once you should have enough NPC's for YEARS of gaming. that's why i'd say to put in at least 200, if not 250 NPC's.

i wonder if any publisher would be able to resist giving margarite, the town prostitute - excuse me, ONE of MANY town prostitutes - a pair of magic boots or a decanter of endless water, though?

i'm glad that THG is thinking of doing this, they are pretty good. the title unsettles me a little, though. uncommon commoners? i'm not sure. the whole point is that these folks are common commoners! oh well, i suppose you'd have to have a jazzy title to catch people's attention.

another option, which i'm not so sure how feasible it is, is to print these suckers on index cards. i and many others use them quite a bit. i already have pictures that i've scanned from many rpg sources and glued onto 4 x 6 cards, so i have a face that i can show my players. the backround i just whip up on the fly.

 

[Psion]

The real question is how much would you PAY for such a supplement? How many pages would you expect it to be? How large would each character's write up be? I imagine the character descriptions dominating the page with little mini-stat blocks (Com1, Craft (pottery) +3) or am I way off here?

I probably wouldn't buy it.

I find Enemies & Allies useful because D&D isn't the easiest game to come up with fully statted-out NPCs for on the fly.

I find books like NPC Essentials useful because they give me techniques to create compelling NPCs and improve my style.

But a book of "mini stat block NPCs with quirks"? Don't see the advantage. Assigning a few skill points is child's play. Creating quirky NPCs is a little more difficult (but only a little), but I find that I am far better of designing them myself to fit my game. If the quirks are inconsequential to the game, you are better off with a random table that a book full of NPCs 90% of which you won't use.

 

[Frosty]

Uncommon Commoners

How about a book like Monster Manual with entries like Apotechary and Drunk instead of Aboleth and Dragon? All other things being equal (pictures, texts, stats).

 

[King_Stannis]

I probably wouldn't buy it.

I find Enemies & Allies useful because D&D isn't the easiest game to come up with fully statted-out NPCs for on the fly.

I find books like NPC Essentials useful because they give me techniques to create compelling NPCs and improve my style.

But a book of "mini stat block NPCs with quirks"? Don't see the advantage. Assigning a few skill points is child's play. Creating quirky NPCs is a little more difficult (but only a little), but I find that I am far better of designing them myself to fit my game. If the quirks are inconsequential to the game, you are better off with a random table that a book full of NPCs 90% of which you won't use.

well then, that settles it. psion speaks: no book of common npc's.

i'd argue that with programs like master tools, it's not THAT hard to come up with stats for npc's, though. and seriously, how often do you NEED full stats for common NPC's? unless your players are enlisting every bartender and dog-catcher they meet, you shouldn't need stats for folks like that. remember, we're not talking about mercenaries for hire or thieves from the guild here.

if you have the time to hone your craft with NPC essentials, great. you've probably already done most of what we're talking about here, so i can understand why you wouldn't buy such a product. however, there are some of us who either don't have the time or, quite frankly, are pretty lazy when it comes to such things. enter an opportunistic D20 publisher....

i also think you miss the concept. it's not a book of "NPC's with quirks", it's a book of 3-D NPC's. yes they might have quirks, but they might also like gardening and are willing to talk at length about a certain purple wildflower that only blooms 2 weeks out of the year. that's flavor that players will appreciate. now, i know you might say "well, just make that up when they talk to that person", which is a bit naive. you don't think there's beginning DM's who couldn't find a use for such a book? hell, i've been a DM for 20+ years and i'd find great use for such a book. could i write my own and would they be as good? maybe, but i'm willing to pay for the convenience of having a book i can read over my lunch with pictures i can show my players. i think alot of others would, too.

i don't understand the "random table" comment. i can only assume you may be misunderstanding what we want. it's a book of npc's with a backstory, not a one word descriptive like "surly" or "gregarious".

you think most people would not use 90% of such a book? let's say the average party is going to be in an inn or a public gathering for a little bit? an average party of 5 members could talk to 5 different people in one evening. out of, say, a 150-NPC book, that's 3%. in one encounter/evening.

fully fleshed out npc's are the life-blood of a good campaign. any supplement that chooses to strengthen that, no matter how ordinary or banal, is good IMO.

 

[King_Stannis]

double post

 

[der_kluge]

another option, which i'm not so sure how feasible it is, is to print these suckers on index cards. i and many others use them quite a bit. i already have pictures that i've scanned from many rpg sources and glued onto 4 x 6 cards, so i have a face that i can show my players. the backround i just whip up on the fly.

Those are some great ideas, Stannis. Like I said, we only talked about doing the book, we're not actually working on it, but we might some day. This is some good feedback, though.

 

[jmucchiello]

I know just the person to write this book if I can convince her to. You wouldn't want me to do it, I'd end up creating the Town Drunk prestige class. I like the idea of including a few blank boxes next to the characters for stuff like "where encountered", "future expected encounters" and stuff like that.

Perhaps a better title is Common Commoners.

Joe Mucchiello
Throwing Dice Games

 

[Psion]

well then, that settles it. psion speaks: no book of common npc's.

At least not for me. Sheesh, people. I know a lot of people respect my judgement, but I do occasionally speak for myself.

i'd argue that with programs like master tools, it's not THAT hard to come up with stats for npc's, though. and seriously, how often do you NEED full stats for common NPC's? unless your players are enlisting every bartender and dog-catcher they meet, you shouldn't need stats for folks like that. remember, we're not talking about mercenaries for hire or thieves from the guild here.

I agree that certain software tools are helpful. And I also agree that NPC stats are pretty trivial. But I said that, didn't I?

i also think you miss the concept. it's not a book of "NPC's with quirks", it's a book of 3-D NPC's. yes they might have quirks, but they might also like gardening and are willing to talk at length about a certain purple wildflower that only blooms 2 weeks out of the year. that's flavor that players will appreciate.

That doesn't sound too bad. But sersiously, I still think it has limited appeal for me personally. My reasons for not liking this approach too much are twofold. One, as I said before, even in a fairly big resource of this sort, I often find that nothing fits just right and I end up severely tweaking it and making a lot of it up myself. Two, I am of the campaign style that I prefer to skip over "inconsequential shopkeep yammering" and there are few enough NPCs that I feel are important enough to give this much detail to that it is not too much of a task.

now, i know you might say "well, just make that up when they talk to that person", which is a bit naive. you don't think there's beginning DM's who couldn't find a use for such a book?

Sure. But I imagine that many GMs will find as I did that learning the skills for yourself might be a better investment in the long run, as you can better adapt it to your game's needs.

hell, i've been a DM for 20+ years and i'd find great use for such a book.
(...)
i think alot of others would, too.

Quite possibly. I'm just speaking for myself (and perhaps some others out there who might feel as I do.)

i don't understand the "random table" comment. i can only assume you may be misunderstanding what we want. it's a book of npc's with a backstory, not a one word descriptive like "surly" or "gregarious".

I've been frequently told -- and agree -- that one memorable quirk is all you really need to make NPCs stand out. Trying to give players the life stories of minor NPCs is often lost on them/goes over their head/under their radar screens OR serves as a distraction from the real stories. NPC details are garnish, IMO. You don't need to heap it on. Often a table of quirks, mannerisms, motives, and whatnot, can give you much more mileage that fully fleshed out NPCs that don't fit and have more detail than will ever be pertinent or exposed in the game.

you think most people would not use 90% of such a book?

Yes, I do think that. I find that a great many of these location and NPC books only has a handful of items that a particular GM would like. Heck, I think that about Enemies & Allies and Urban Blight, so don't feel alone there. The difference for me is that when I do need those details, it's more of a service to me when you need exacting game mechanics on the fly. Making up NPC personalities is a bit easier to wing... and I consider myself no master of NPCs.

fully fleshed out npc's are the life-blood of a good campaign.

1) The more fully fleshed out they are, the harder they are to work into a campaign, as more details have a chance at being at odds with the campaign assumptions.

2) Trying to squeeze detail into inconsequential encounters (which is really the only way I can see using a large portion of the contents of such a book) can really make a campaign drag, IMO.

 

[Ramien Meltides]

Hey King Stannis! (And others)

Although this is a blatant plug (since I work for Citizen Games) I can't help but notice that what you're describing, an NPC resource, is almost exactly like our 1,000 faces books.

The first book, Villains and Scoundrels, covers 250 "bad guys" who run the gamut from sinister bartenders to empire-ruling liches. Commoners, adventuring types, and some even stranger things sprinkled in. The book comes out in two weeks, give it a peek... I think it's what you're looking for. Hey, we've even got Larry Elmore art for our characters!

www.citizengames.com has the information on 1,000 faces.