Bounded Accuracy L&L

[IronWolf]

I am not real sure how we became fixated on a wooden door. But it seems a mountain is being made out of a molehill. If you as DM have a party of 20th level characters encounter a simple wooden door - just make it an automatic success or something. There is no need for it to be a challenge.

Why are people thinking the designers want a wooden door to be a challenge at level 20?

 

[Minigiant]

Doors have a static Break DC, a static Unlock DC if it has a lock, hit points and DR/Hardness.

The unlock and break DCs are static and unless you get better at them, they are as difficult at first and twentieth level.

The HP is also static. But in 5E, damage scales with level so destroying the door is easier.

Note: The Break DC shouldn't be to actually break the door. It should be to pop it out the hinges and lock and knock it t the ground.

 

[Steely_Dan]

I am not real sure how we became fixated on a wooden door.

Neither do I, certain barriers are always a pain to break through, I do not think a high level/Str fighter should just huff, and puff, and blow your house down.

 

[Mercule]

This sounds like a good idea. I see enough potential pitfalls that I want to see how it's implemented before I sing praises. But, I suspect those praises will be coming.

 

[Remathilis]

I am not real sure how we became fixated on a wooden door. But it seems a mountain is being made out of a molehill. If you as DM have a party of 20th level characters encounter a simple wooden door - just make it an automatic success or something. There is no need for it to be a challenge.

Why are people thinking the designers want a wooden door to be a challenge at level 20?

Haters gonna hate.

I find it all highly ironic, btw.

Poster1: WAH! In 3e it was too easy to beat DCs and skill checks were pointless at high level!
Poster2: WAH! 4e DCs scaled with level, so it progressively got harder to do mundane things!
Poster3: WAH! Now the math is flat I can I can't beat DCs without trying anymore!

 

[Fenes]

I am not real sure how we became fixated on a wooden door. But it seems a mountain is being made out of a molehill. If you as DM have a party of 20th level characters encounter a simple wooden door - just make it an automatic success or something. There is no need for it to be a challenge.

Why are people thinking the designers want a wooden door to be a challenge at level 20?

Because that's what they wrote in the Blog?

It's good for verisimilitude. The bounded accuracy system lets us perpetually associate difficulty numbers with certain tasks based on what they are in the world, without the need to constantly escalate the story behind those tasks. For example, we can say that breaking down an iron-banded wooden door is a DC 17 check, and that can live in the game no matter what level the players are. There's no need to constantly escalate the in-world descriptions to match a growing DC; an iron-banded door is just as tough to break down at 20th level as it was at 1st, and it might still be a challenge for a party consisting of heroes without great Strength scores. There's no need to make it a solid adamantine door encrusted with ancient runes just to make it a moderate challenge for the high-level characters. Instead, we let that adamantine door encrusted with ancient runes have its own high DC as a reflection of its difficulty in the world. If players have the means of breaking down the super difficult adamantine door, it's because they pursued player options that make that so, and it is not simply a side effect of continuing to adventure.

They really seem to think that unless you have a really strong character in the party who is able to force a door open, a wooden door will be a challenge for a level 20 party. Which means they apparently do not think all the other ways to deal with a door, mainly, hacking it to pieces, are applicable.

 

[Grazzt]

Because that's what they wrote in the Blog?



They really seem to think that unless you have a really strong character in the party who is able to force a door open, a wooden door will be a challenge for a level 20 party. Which means they apparently do not think all the other ways to deal with a door, mainly, hacking it to pieces, are applicable.

Hacking it to pieces should be different than breaking it down. Break DC should be for unhinging and shattering the door through brute force. AC, hp, hardness, whatever should be for when the PCs want to chop it to pieces.

Another alternative since we are fascinated with doors. Tie the halfling to the door. Knock. Run. See what eats him. Good way to know if what behind the door is worth checking out.

 

[IronWolf]

They really seem to think that unless you have a really strong character in the party who is able to force a door open, a wooden door will be a challenge for a level 20 party. Which means they apparently do not think all the other ways to deal with a door, mainly, hacking it to pieces, are applicable.

They say it *might* still be a challenge. So if you have a party who did nothing along the way to improve their strength then yes, breaking the door down might still be a challenge.

Why should a non-strong character in a party be able to break the door down? Just because they are 20th level? Isn't that sort of like saying "I have a 10 strength, but because I am 20th level I choose to break the door down."

Further, do we know that doors and objects aren't going to have hit points and hardness values? Break usually only means if you are trying to break the door down with force - not with damage. So if the fighter (who lets face it, is going to have the strength to break it down anyways at 20th level) wants to hit it with his axe I suspect that is a viable option. Or if the wizards wants to fireball the door down. Or have they said objects won't have hit points in 5e?

In either case - I hardly see this as an issue to get all fired up over. Ultimately, as the playtest has said so far, the DM is in the position to adjust things as needed. If you want your party at 20th level to be able to bust down doors - done! Don't require a check.

The DM Guidelines doc states up front that the rules are not in charge. Make the decision that makes the game fun for your game. A line in the sand has not been drawn on this issue.

 

[billd91]

They really seem to think that unless you have a really strong character in the party who is able to force a door open, a wooden door will be a challenge for a level 20 party. Which means they apparently do not think all the other ways to deal with a door, mainly, hacking it to pieces, are applicable.

I think you're making huge assumptions on very little information. Yes, using Strength to force open a door may still be a challenge if they don't have anyone well-invested in strength. That's pretty much all they're saying yet you're jumping to the conclusion that there will be no other way to force open a door in the final game.

You need to chill out a bit. Pace yourself. There's a long way to go before this is all done.

 

[Fenes]

The point is that the dev who blogged it was does not realize that any level 20 party able to kill a dragon will not, in no way, be challenged by a wooden door. Not at all. No matter their strength scores. If you can kill a dragon you can destroy a wooden door without trying. Otherwise something is very, very wrong with the game - or the dragons.

So, I do hope the dev simply was sloppy and did not think his example through before posting - sloppy, but not damning as having wooden doors be meant to challenge level 20 parties would be.