Bounded Accuracy L&L

[Fenes]

I think you're making huge assumptions on very little information. Yes, using Strength to force open a door may still be a challenge if they don't have anyone well-invested in strength. That's pretty much all they're saying yet you're jumping to the conclusion that there will be no other way to force open a door in the final game.

You need to chill out a bit. Pace yourself. There's a long way to go before this is all done.

Using strength to open a door is obsolete at level 20. The example is stupid, and hopefully a mistake.

 

[Piratecat]

Actually, I think the example is great. There's a lot I love about 4e, but the need to rationalize the rising DCs isn't included.

 

[Umbran]

Haters gonna hate.

You know, folks, it is terribly easy, and therefore tempting, to lump all people who hold a position you don't agree with into one group, and slap a label on them that insinuates some failure of character on their part, so that you can dismiss them.

It is easy. It is also insulting and ad hominem. So, rude *and* rhetorically weak. Not a winning combination. Avoid this in the future, please.

Questions? Please take them to e-mail or PM with the moderator of your choice. Thanks!

 

[Steely_Dan]

Using strength to open a door is obsolete at level 20. The example is stupid, and hopefully a mistake.

I agree, some things are difficult all of your life.

 

[Viking Bastard]

I agree, some things are difficult all of your life.

Like arguing on the internet.

 

[Fenes]

Actually, I think the example is great. There's a lot I love about 4e, but the need to rationalize the rising DCs isn't included.

Oh, no, that the DC remains at 17 without scaling according to the party level is very good. No probem there.

That a dev seems to think forcing a wooden door open with brute strength alone is anything anyone might care about at level 20 is what is bad. If the party is able to deal with level 20 foes, then a door should not be any challenge at all. It just breaks immersion if our characters can hack a Dragon to pieces, but can't casually, without trying, destroy a door.

As an example of the problem: Treating a bleeding wound should keep the same DC for a heal check no matter your level. But no one sane would expect anyone to care about it at a level where you'll have spells and potions galore.

(Excepting constructed "no, you're naked and have no gear or spells" scenarios.)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The point is that the dev who blogged it was does not realize that any level 20 party able to kill a dragon will not, in no way, be challenged by a wooden door. Not at all. No matter their strength scores. If you can kill a dragon you can destroy a wooden door without trying. Otherwise something is very, very wrong with the game - or the dragons.

So, I do hope the dev simply was sloppy and did not think his example through before posting - sloppy, but not damning as having wooden doors be meant to challenge level 20 parties would be.

No, they will be strength-challenged by it, not "knock"-challenged or "disintegrate"-challenged.

Mustrum "The German Who Went Up a Mountain But Came Down a Molehill" Ridcully

 

[Fenes]

No, they will be strength-challenged by it, not "knock"-challenged or "disintegrate"-challenged.

Mustrum "The German Who Went Up a Mountain But Came Down a Molehill" Ridcully

That is an interpretation that does not fit the text posted. The text claims that if the party has no one with a high strength score, then a wooden door might present a challenge at level 20.

As I said, I hope the dev simply was sloppy, and posted that line without thinking it through, and meant to actually write "a level 20 party without someone with exceptional strength might finding it a small challenge to force open a with door with strength alone, not that they would do that anyway, since they can destroy it far more easily at that level."

 

[Balesir]

That a dev seems to think forcing a wooden door open with brute strength alone is anything anyone might care about at level 20 is what is bad. If the party is able to deal with level 20 foes, then a door should not be any challenge at all. It just breaks immersion if our characters can hack a Dragon to pieces, but can't casually, without trying, destroy a door.

If you think doors are tough, wait 'til you have to face a gazebo!

No, they will be strength-challenged by it, not "knock"-challenged or "disintegrate"-challenged.

And I would add, "nor Axe challenged", lest this start to look like "well, obviously the mundanes will struggle with it, but magic is special..."

 

[Viking Bastard]

Oh, no, that the DC remains at 17 without scaling according to the party level is very good. No probem there.

That a dev seems to think forcing a wooden door open with brute strength alone is anything anyone might care about at level 20 is what is bad. If the party is able to deal with level 20 foes, then a door should not be any challenge at all. It just breaks immersion if our characters can hack a Dragon to pieces, but can't casually, without trying, destroy a door.

Depends. If there are no high-strength characters in the party, I see no reason why they should be able to break open a door without breaking a sweat, high levels or not. Probably not gonna stop them longer than a turn or two, but with the Armies of Hell hot on their heels, those can be expensive. Anyway, one of the casters should be able to blow it up. Or teleport to a different continent.