[BoVD]Well, since I can't seem to post this on Wizards forums...

[ColonelHardisson]

Re: Well, since I can't seem to post this on Wizards forums...

I have a friend who was posting legitimate concerns about the Scarred Lands setting over on Sword and Sorcery’s message boards. He riled up one of the authors on the game line, who also happened to be a moderator, and was subsequently banned for awhile. Are game companies today unable to take criticism? I know my friend wasn’t trolling or flaming, he had legitimate complaints. This same friend had complaints about another product by Necromancer Games, and he got into an argument with Orcus himself. Because of that instance I will choose not to spend money on anything published by Necromancer Games. Why? Because I don’t think the president of a company should get into shouting matches with a regular Joe gamer.

To be blunt, it really sounds more like your friend doesn't know how to express himself civilly. "Criticism" does not mean one can say anything one wants without the possibility of a response. But, since we know nothing about the actual "concerns" expressed, all we have to go on is your characterization of events - and we know that the person having the trouble is your friend, so I'm sure you realize we have to assume you're presenting him in the best light.

 

[Winterthorn]

Hype, hyperbole, marketing tricks and hot air...

I've been watching this "vile" drama unfold--with a skeptical eye--and I'll just wait to see things for myself thank you. All along I've had this nasty feeling the rumours and hype are the sole "engines" running this issue (pun intended).

For me, the greatest offense thus far is the marketing hype. The act of pitching a product--I speak in general terms here (think of any big brand name out there)--is where we all should take a good look and ask ourselves "how am I being manipulated today"?

So I'll munch on my chill pills until I've seen Dragon 300 and the BoVD. Afterwhich I may join in the discussion with a better sense of the issues...

I hope I wasn't rude there, but hype annoys me--greatly!

Cheers anyways

-W.

 

[herald]

I'm with BlackMoria on this. I'm a 35-year-old father of two. There was nothing in the pages that I couldn't find in a pg-13 movie if I looked for it.

Personally, I think that Hickman is the last person in the world to complain about vileness. He turned one of his characters of his books into the most evil peron in his world.

That character devovers the soul of another evil mage. He brings his world to the brink of distruction for apothiosis.

Lastly in punishment he is chained to a rock and has his guts ripped out by a zombie every day. (Sounds pretty vile to me.)

He made Anti-heroes in D&D cool, between Raistlin and Strad von Zarovich, they are two of the most identifiable characters of the TSR days.

Did he not think that by opening this door that others might walk through it and find something worth exploring?

This reminds me of a story Kirk Douglas used to tell about John Wayne.

Kirk had just played Vincent Van Gogh in a movie and it had won him many accolades (and possibly an oscar.)

Being quite happy about the situation, he happened to call upon John at some function and asked him what he thought of the movie.

John told him that he was angry at him and asked him about what right he had to make a movie like that.

Kirk was stunned and asked him what he meant.

John told him, "Your a box office hero, a tough guy. You have no right doing movies about ""weaklings"" that cry."

And John was quite serious.

John came from a point of view that for many reasons makes sense. He was a very successful actor and had a very matter of fact way of seeing things. He was a box office superstar. He did one thing right, and did it over and over again.

Kirk was a young actor that had decided that he would go in many directions, try many things and have the courage carry on, even if his fans and supporters wouldn't like it. He was bound to try and reach a further audiance, and hopefully in the end he thought, history will prove me right and remember my work.

Hickman is John in this situation,...

Monte is Kirk.


Now don't get me wrong. On a rainy saturday afternoon, I just might hit one of the cable stations, and I will watch a John Wayne movie, just for fun. Everything is black and white and john is hard not to like.

But I just as well might catch Clint Eastwood in a Spagetti Western. Things are pretty grey and the protaganist is not nice.


People had the same reaction to those types of movies just like they had to this debate. In the end, they stand on thier own.

Now, if you pardon me, I gotta shake out my duster, and do something about this stubble...

 

[Ashtal]

I would rather the hobby have a reputation for family entertainment rather than one as a 'mature' hobby. WotC (and Paizzo as a publisher of official material) has the biggest impact on that reputation and they are harming it right now.

For me, I don't see this as necessarily a thing which is either one or the other. It's obviously been, and continues to be, not only both, but supporting a range of products.

The hobby will never be an exclusively 'family' hobby over a 'mature' one. It never has been, either. But neither are movies, or books, or whathaveyou. There is a range of tastes, and a range within each medium to cater to those tastes.

Should we stop making adult, R-rated movies, because children can watch movies? No - you just make sure that your children do not watch said movies; that's what G, PG and AA rated movies are for. No one says you have to buy the Vile book and apply it to your game. Your children never have to see the book, until you think they are mature enough to handle it. Yes, this does require some thought and care on the part of a parent, but that's what parents are for - to shield, to protect, to teach. But as a consumer, I want choice.

The Book of Vile Darkness isn't my thing, but neither will I begrudge the company for wanting to make it, or for the community to buy it. In the end, it's all about who's buying it. If there are enough, it gets supported, and if not, it doesn't. Voting with your wallet is a much more democratic way of resolving this than demanding a company not to produce something at all.

 

[alsih2o]

I recommend WotC stay with a marketing plan that this is a "family" game.

i cannot seem to understand what is "family" about d+d.

in the core books alone we find some of the most vile things imaginable.
setting creatures on fire, weapons for disemboweling and clubbing others to death, cloning involving soul hopping(!), biological warfare, the creation of undead, poisoning, complete disentigration, terrible snares and traps, the ability to dispel good(!), life draining magics, people being turned to stone, the harnessing of negative energy, summoning...the list goes on and on.

i would, in the spirit of freindly debate,like someone to explain what they mean by "family game".

 

[nyrfherdr]

Son of Thunder,
You go over a bunch of stuff here which makes it really difficult to comment on all of it and many of us have chosen different topics to speak to.
I choose Customer Service.

While I understand the comments you make about attitude and poor customer service, your examples don't really prove the attitude, except maybe that many of the authors and designers are no longer sitting silently by while all manner of comments are made around them.
I have to say that I am happy that the authors, artists, designers and industry professionals participate in all of these different forums. It is great to send an e-mail to Privateer Press and get a response back. That has to be one of th coolest parts of the new d20 world of publishing and the internet.
That also means that many of these people speak their mind. That's a dangerous thing when you look at it from a Customer Service perspective. They could very well anger many of the people they hope to serve.
Is it wrong? I don't think so.
Would I choose to do it? Probably not. In the business I'm in every customer counts. I can't afford to lose one.

I can tell you though. I've had some pretty tough conversations with some of my customers. They are not all nice people. They do not all wish me well, even on their best days. It takes every ounce of control not to let some of my frustration slip out and I am a seasoned veteran with years of Customer Service training and experience.

I choose to let these industry professionals speak and I listen. And I make my own choices based on their actions and the products they produce. That's close enough to Nirvana for me.
(I'll leave the vile content discussion to others more eloquent than I)

Nyrfherdr
Customer Service Executive
Software Industry

 

[SemperJase]

i would, in the spirit of freindly debate,like someone to explain what they mean by "family game".

Sure, your basic good vs. evil where the PCs play the good guys whose goal is to overcome evil. The fact that such a game can contain undead or violence does not exclude it from being a family game. Violence is used in real world situations everyday for good (cops shooting and killing criminals). When the situations used above are clearly defined as evil actions then the social, team-building, and moral lessons are valuable.

Taking your example, one can criticize previously mentioned John Wayne movies. They show murder, theft, lieing etc. But in context they are morality plays. Those things are clearly defined as bad and force is used to overcome evil.

Society really has changd. When I was young, and we played cops & robbers everyone wanted to be the good guys. In fact, nobody played the robbers, they were imaginary since no one wanted to play them. In roleplaying games, I've seen too many games where the good guys are imaginary. I think that is sad. People are better for being encouraged to be more than they are, even in pretend.

 

[alsih2o]

Violence is used in real world situations everyday for good (cops shooting and killing criminals).

wow, i see cops shooting suspects as tragic, and believe most cops do too.

your opinion seems to be stating "violence is o.k. when the RIGHT people do it" which is very foriegn to what i think most people mean when they use the term "family oriented"

but your post does make your thought process much clearer to me, and i appreciate that.

 

[jasper]

freedom of speech is only free
if you own the paper, web site, tv station.
To quote Heinlien "Not in my court room, clerk find this gentleman a soap box and place it out on the front lawn".

Now customer service is not listening to every Tom, Dick, or harry, scream their views at you, or on the web repeatly post the same arguement again and again and again just because you learn to cut and paste and feel strongly.
Customer service is trying to make the customer happy while watching the bottom line. That's Money and Profits folks.

Most moderators are willing to let slide alot until you become tiresome. And you can't whine about your free speech rights because they have not be violated. Only the government can violate those. And sometimes they can get away with it.

Herald good pts about Hickman.

 

[Mallus]

I recommend WotC stay with a marketing plan that this is a "family" game.

D&D 3E is by far the best selling RPG

I would rather the hobby have a reputation for family entertainment rather than one as a 'mature' hobby. WotC (and Paizzo as a publisher of official material) has the biggest impact on that reputation and they are harming it right now.

1) As the best-selling RPG, with, I assume, the largest, broadest demographic, wouldn't a broad strategy, with products targeted at every section of the market, be the the most appropriate?

2) I'm really bothered by the notion that this boundless, boardless, totally open ended, still-after-all-these-years revolutionary game of the imagination should be supported solely by products that pass some ill-defined criteria of "family friendly". There are a lot of ways to play the game. Some appropriate for young teens and even children, others not. Imagine someone suggesting that fantasy literature ought to confine itself to "The Chronicles of Narnia" or "The Prydain Chronicles". Fine works, to be sure, but it absurd to want the shelves of the local bookstore to be empty of everything that isn't in that mold.

Does the inclusion of a few more graphic {I hestitate to use the word mature} products really constitute any kind of change at all in the industry? Which leads to...

3) D&D was never, to my mind, family friendly. The early 1st Ed. AD&D material that I started with had an assasin class, big tables full of posions, and lots of grim, deadly, badly illustrated {this added to my horror} where the underlying assumption was that the good guys would die frequently and roll new characters. The overall feel of the material was far more Robert E. Howard than J.R.R Tolkien....