D&D 5E Boy, that escalated quickly...

[Raunalyn]

Oh, I dunno - we canvassed information multiple times - how about a hint? "Hey, my cousin works there, she knows this..." or "Well, I don't know, but, if you talk to Schmengi, he might know..." that sort of thing?

Yup, we made a mistake in assuming that guard patrols would patrol in circles. Did you tell us that the guards were only patrolling one side of the manor? Hrm, we go over the wall (1 check to see if we're spotted) get exactly zero time to react - it was basically place the minis on the board and make a second check - to spot the patrol. Why not do a tiny bit of assumption on your part to presume that we're being careful? Considering the situation, why not mention, "Hey, as you poke your nose over the wall to climb, you spot another patrol on the other side of the building"?

But, yup, we didn't say it, so, it didn't happen.

Like I said, it's pixel bitching. If we don't detail every single step, and every single step isn't perfect, we have zero chance of success. The first mistake we make is a total failure.

Is that how you saw it? Climbing up over the wall, seeing the patrol, jumping back down and not bothering to send someone around the frikkin' building to look before jumping back up somewhere else and getting caught is me setting you up for failure, Hussar. You caught me. Not listening to your own party and thinking about setting up a distraction is me setting you up for failure. Yep...

If you feel the need to assign blame, then maybe you should go look in the mirror?

Yes, it's pixel bitching. Ok, dude...

So, even attempting to plan was a failure in the first place. The only way we could gather information at all was to ask around. And the very act of asking around actually increased the difficulty of the scenario. So, we spent several days digging for information, which revealed nothing of detail, only vague generalities, and this ramped up the difficulty of the scenario? And you wonder why I'm a bit frustrated?

What was the point? Why not just start the scenario off at the front gate and roll initiative. That was going to be the result pretty much no matter what we did.

Oh, I don't know...the fact that none of you even tried to disguise yourselves may have had something to do with it...especially after me asking not once, not twice, but no less than 5 times if you wanted to disguise yourselves. Especially after learning that one character's father was leading the enemy army's spy network there in the city. But yes, Hussar...I was setting you up for failure. Once again, you caught me.

Or maybe it's that the work I put into my campaign, setting, and sessions aren't very much appreciated. At least, that's the impression I'm getting right now. So maybe you will understand where my sarcasm and frustration is coming from as well, yes?

 

[TwoSix]

The moral of this age-old story is, as always:

Planning is for suckers, and new character sheets are free.

 

[Hussar]

Argh. I knew this was going to escalate. . Look I haven't been bitching about this constantly have I? Have I been complaining about the campaign before this? I don't think I have.

A lot of this is down to timing. If it was one scenario I wouldn't have even noticed. But it's been about five times in a row. You just happen to be getting the tail end of it.

Session after session for months has gotten me to the point where I'm complaining. It's not any one thing. It's mostly due to the fact that we've had the same results time after time. And it is a bit frustrating.

We've gamed together for what four years now? I certainly wouldn't have stuck around if I didn't think you were doing a great job. Bitching about this one thing hardly means I'm hating the game.

 

[NotActuallyTim]

Or maybe it's that the work I put into my campaign, setting, and sessions aren't very much appreciated.

It never is, is it? Go to the trouble of creating a complex world full of moving parts for people to discover, and what happens? They walk up to the King on his throne and start talking trash with a handful of bat guano.

 

[Raunalyn]

Argh. I knew this was going to escalate. . Look I haven't been bitching about this constantly have I? Have I been complaining about the campaign before this? I don't think I have.

A lot of this is down to timing. If it was one scenario I wouldn't have even noticed. But it's been about five times in a row. You just happen to be getting the tail end of it.

Session after session for months has gotten me to the point where I'm complaining. It's not any one thing. It's mostly due to the fact that we've had the same results time after time. And it is a bit frustrating.

We've gamed together for what four years now? I certainly wouldn't have stuck around if I didn't think you were doing a great job. Bitching about this one thing hardly means I'm hating the game.

(Turning off Sarcasm)

Don't sweat it, dude...we're cool. I was just telling you how it was making me feel about your complaints.

And I also was trying to help you understand that the scenarios are not setup to make you fail...it's just how they happened. My game had two specific scenarios...the mansion, where you stepped into a hornet's nest and fought a whole group of weaker mobs, several of whom ran and got reinforcements. Honestly, there wasn't really much you could do about that one considering the closed quarters...even if you had prevented someone from escaping, it would have been likely that someone else heard you. So, you have a valid reason to feel this way with this first scenario.

Then the manor was just poor planning and bad rolls...that's all.

 

[Shasarak]

PC1: Hey, Leeroy. How come our plans never seem to work?

LJ: Just bad luck, I guess.

 

[Hussar]

(Turning off Sarcasm)

Don't sweat it, dude...we're cool. I was just telling you how it was making me feel about your complaints.

And I also was trying to help you understand that the scenarios are not setup to make you fail...it's just how they happened. My game had two specific scenarios...the mansion, where you stepped into a hornet's nest and fought a whole group of weaker mobs, several of whom ran and got reinforcements. Honestly, there wasn't really much you could do about that one considering the closed quarters...even if you had prevented someone from escaping, it would have been likely that someone else heard you. So, you have a valid reason to feel this way with this first scenario.

Then the manor was just poor planning and bad rolls...that's all.

Y'know, really, I think that's it more than anything. It's just been a string for the last little while. I mean, this certainly hasn't come up before, so, it's not like it's a constant complaint or anything like that. And, stepping back and trying to be as objective as I can, it's likely a combination of a lot of factors - some *ahem* poor choices on the player's parts , some unlucky die role and some similarities between set ups.

'sall good.

 

[Herobizkit]

Pardon for stepping into the line of fire, but a couple of thoughts hit me as I read the exchange between [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] and [MENTION=72670]Raunalyn[/MENTION] ...

In Hussar's case, yeah, I can see how every attempt to be cool, sneaky ninjas resulting in "and now you fight everything" is a source of frustration. I get that he and his group ('the group' from now on) are in a hostile city and would generally take reasonable precautions to avoid notice. By contrast, though, if you're trying to be a sneaky ninja and you get caught and you're not wearing your ninja pyjamas (or a disguise or have some kind of exit strategy in place)... well, you reap what you sow.

In Raunayn's case, the players do not live in the DM's head. They will never, ever, see things from your all-knowing all-seeing DM viewpoint of the scenario. A person can 'coulda shoulda' all they want once the scenario is over, but in the actual moment of ingress during play, I can see where Hussar feels that "I must cover every possible situation the DM can create or we will fail". And they did fail, on their very first stealth roll.

As for the 'coulda shoulda'... Is it possible that the enemy readiness could have been better telegraphed?

And for Hussar, was there no chance of retreat? We all hate to do it, but sometimes, it's the better part of valor, especially if you're a sneaky ninja.

Again, if I am off-base, feel free to disregard. ^_^

 

[S'mon]

Edit to clarify: Getting to the manor did not alert the guards that you were coming...the several days you spent in the city digging up information did. That's why they had sketches of everyone in your group.

I once had a 3e group that would shoot themselves in the foot like this - spend so long in
'information gathering' & 'planning' that they would eventually alert the bad guys and fail. When if
they would just have struck hard and fast they'd have retained the element of surprise
and probably won. In that group there was one player with a skewed perspective and
strong personality who would wrap the rest of the group up in his paranoid world of
smoke and mirrors. I think it was the most frustrating GM experience I've ever had.

 

[billd91]

Edit: Someone beat me to mentioning this. Also, i agree 120% with Hussar. When PC's put in the work, you as a DM bend over backwards and grab your ankles to let their hard work pay off. Always. Why? Because they are PC's and those other guys are not. They are not the stars of the show. They are at-best brief speedbumps who will appear once and then vanish. Them seeming awesome and competent doesn't make the game better in the long run and create epic tales. The PC's doing so, does.

Depends on what kind of story you're participating in. Is it a light entertainment romp or a grittier drama? Is it more like being Batman in the 1960s Batman TV show or like being Night Owl and Rorschach in the Watchmen? More like Roger Moore James Bond or the book James Bond? Hussar may be thinking he's in one kind of story, but Raunalyn think it's another.