Bracers of Armor obsolete?

[KarinsDad]

But that's no different than what a wizard can do, and Wizards at least get bonus feats. The Sorcerer is spending one of his precious few feat slots on a feat he can use only 3-4 times a day - whereas the Wizard is knocking off quicked True Strikes, Magic Missles, etc as desired.

Not as desired. As prepared.

Yes, a Wizard can cast a Quicken spell.

If he has prepared to do so.

It is not quicken that is overly potent, it is spontaneous quicken. It adds magnitudes of versatility to a Sorcerer. Non-spontaneous Quicken for Sorcerers like via the Arcane Preparation feat are not broken like Spontaneous Quicken is.


People appear to have a hard time understanding the game balance between Wizards and Sorcerers. Both have pros and cons. When WotC takes a pro from one side and gives it to the other, they shift the balance of power. And they especially do so when they add multiple ways for the class that could never cast more than one spell in a round to suddenly do so.

I think so many people have whined that Wizards get bonus feats whereas Sorcerers do not that even WotC is starting to think that Wizards are better than Sorcerers. Course, that's a crock, but perceptions often do not match reality.

 

[Stalker0]

People appear to have a hard time understanding the game balance between Wizards and Sorcerers. Both have pros and cons. When WotC takes a pro from one side and gives it to the other, they shift the balance of power.

Its not necessarily that people don't understand the balance, they just don't think its there. Many people feel sorcs are weaker than wizards overall, and its not just bonus feats. Sorcs get spells at a slower progression that wizards. They get far fewer spells known, and not that many more spells per day.

So allowing a sorc to quicken does shift the balance of power, but for many its a healthy shift

 

[KarinsDad]

Sorcerers are pretty shafted in general compared to Wizards.

Actually, they are fairly evenly balanced.

Wizards get versatility, bonus feats, and higher level spells one level earlier. Sorcerers get spontaneous casting, spontaneous metamagic casting, and more spells per day (and more higher level spells per day).

A well designed Sorcerer has a better chance of survival than a well designed Wizard because the Sorcerer (once he gets to about a dozen or so spells) always has an option. Wizards often do not. The only way to have a Wizard be always prepared is to have him prepare Scrolls, Wands, or Staves of spells ahead of time and except for Staves, the caster level for those spells are often too low to be real useful in combat.

I have never seen a Sorcerer die in the game (I did see a Warmage die, but he died due to a stupid move from a fellow PC). I have seen multiple Wizards die.

Well designed Sorcerers are the ultimate boy scouts. They are always prepared. Ask Thanee.

 

[Stalker0]

Well designed Sorcerers are the ultimate boy scouts. They are always prepared. Ask Thanee.

I would say wizards are the boy scouts. With an array of spells at their disposal, scrolls, wands, pearls of power, a wizard can have any spell needed for any occasion.

A sorc has a really good hammer and can use it to do some amazing things, but a wizard has the swiss army knife.

 

[KarinsDad]

I would say wizards are the boy scouts. With an array of spells at their disposal, scrolls, wands, pearls of power, a wizard can have any spell needed for any occasion.

Can is the operative word in this sentence.

Turning a Wizard into a Boy Scout costs a lot. Craft feats cost feats. Scrolls and Wands cost XP and gold. Spells placed into spellbooks cost gold. Pearls of Power, for all of their utility, still cannot replace a spell that the Wizard did not prepare that day.

And, a Sorcerer can often (campaign dependent) have the same array of spells on scrolls, he just has to buy them from a Wizard. For the same amount of money that Wizards spend on spells to put into their spellbooks, Sorcerers can afford quite a few scrolls.

And, nothing stops a Sorcerer from taking the Craft Wand feat, creating a few wands of spell x, and then when he is high enough level, swapping out spell x for spell y. Or, nothing stops a Sorcerer form taking Scribe Scroll and trading spells he knows on scrolls for spells he does not know.

A sorc has a really good hammer and can use it to do some amazing things, but a wizard has the swiss army knife.

When all you have is a hammer, every problem is a Nail.

Actually, it is more like the Sorcerer has the Boy Scout's backpack with one of each basic necessity. He has a tent, but he only has one size, multiple sizes if he takes a metamagic feat.

The Wizard has the garage full of tools and equipment where he can only carry so many at a time, but if he knows which item he'll need, he never has to make due with an inferior one. If he needs a pup tent, he can get it. If he needs a large spacious tent, he can get it. But, at any given moment, he may not have a tent at all. The Sorcerer (almost) always at least has his tent with him.

 

[Pinotage]

A mithral chain shirt with the Twilight property (-10% ASF, from BoED and reprinted in PHBII) would have 0% ASF, right?

Do you have a page reference for PHBII. I can't seem to find it.

Pinotage

 

[shilsen]

Do you have a page reference for PHBII. I can't seem to find it.

Pinotage

Not surprising. It's a little sidebar on pg. 21.

 

[anhar]

This armor ability does seem kinda poorly thought out, but yeah, most of my wizards/sorcerers just use mage armor/improved mage armor anyway.

I hates me some threadjacks.

'm going to have to agree with the people saying this is a healthy shift for a sorcerer in this thread.

especially in higher levels, {where this feat starts to shine for sorcerers} I start to see fights being decided in one or two rounds. maybe this is something that's specific to my campaign, but Sorcerers tend to be on the losing end of those fights more often than not. Initiative ends up being very very important.

doesn't matter if you can cast 8 magic missles a day when the equal CR wizard can quickened evards black tentacles and then drop a horrid wilting.

In more modern terms, no matter how much extra ammo he has, the guy with the bolt-action repeater tends to lose to the guy with a machine gun.

It's true I've never seen the party sorcerer run out of spells, but we always stop when the cleric runs out. and he always runs out before anyone else. And I definitely agree with the Wizard being the swiss army knife. you see, he only has a limited number of his own prepared spells, but he can make scrolls for everything he can cast. Hewards handy haversack makes this a very combat-viable option.

oh, and the thing about sorcerers is that unlike every single other class, there is absolutely no reason to stay a sorcerer when you have a prestige class available. {which they almost always take longer to qualify for}. you might take that 10th level of wizard before starting Red Wizard, just to get that bonus feat. No reason to ever do that as a sorcerer.

they need some work.

 

[KarinsDad]

doesn't matter if you can cast 8 magic missles a day when the equal CR wizard can quickened evards black tentacles and then drop a horrid wilting.

Well, this is campaign dependent. Horrid Wilting is Horrid Wilting. It matters not if it is combined with Evard's Black Tentacles or not if the Sorcerer has Still Spell and the campaign gives Eschew Materials to Sorcerers. Granted, that is not core, but it is a common house rule.

And Arcane Preparation already allowed a Sorcerer to do the exact same combo on the Wizard.

Like I said, it is not Quicken for a Sorcerer that is an issue. It is Spontaneous Quicken. The Sorcerer has dozens and dozens of different little Quicken combinations to choose from and can pick the one perfect for the situation.

For example: After the 18th level Wizard casts Evards's and Horrid Wilting on the Metamagic Specialist (average 63 points of damage if save failed), the 1/3rd or 2/3rds hurt Metamagic Specialist turns around and casts (most 18th level Sorcerers have +19 or higher on their Concentration skill) Empowered Chain Lightning on the Wizard (average 94 points of damage if save failed) and the Wizard's allies, followed by Quicken Dimension Door out of the Evard's to a location where he cannot be counterattacked next round.

The Metamagic Specialist did more damage and got out of harms way (in this scenario) since he had spontaneous options as opposed to prepared options.

oh, and the thing about sorcerers is that unlike every single other class, there is absolutely no reason to stay a sorcerer when you have a prestige class available. {which they almost always take longer to qualify for}. you might take that 10th level of wizard before starting Red Wizard, just to get that bonus feat. No reason to ever do that as a sorcerer.

I agree that this happens. But, it is a single option in the large scheme of things.

The vast majority of Wizards never get their 15th and 20th level bonus feats since most Wizards take a PrC. So, these two bonus feats are mostly irrelevant in the game. And, if a Wizard never takes a PrC, the Sorcerer typically gets so many bonus abilities by taking a PrC that he easily overshines the single class Wizard anyway.

 

[Caliban]

A mithral chain shirt with the Twilight property (-10% ASF, from BoED and reprinted in PHBII) would have 0% ASF, right? So for 5.25k (+1 mithral Twilight chain shirt), you have an item that grants a +5 armor bonus and can be freely worn by arcane casters. That's the equivalent of bracers of armor that cost 25k.

Am I missing something, or should every arcane caster be wearing a chain shirt rather than bracers of armor?

Heck, they were obsolete before that. Greater Mage armor is a +6 armor bonus that doesn't take a slot, and it just costs a 3rd level spell slot.

And if you go Argent Savant, that climbs to a +8 armor bonus for a 3rd level spell slot.