Brainstorm 3.x Multiclassing

[Taureth]

I've always thought the multi-classing system in 3.x was rather silly. More so because I find the idea of a character suddenly showing up with a class they previously had no skill in whatsoever to be pretty non-sensical.

So, as an experiment, I implemented good ol' 1stEd style multi-classing in a 3.5 game and it worked out pretty well in practice.

That is to say, you begin at 1st level with the two classes (and I limited it to two) you want to have. (Some combinations I made illegal -- wizard/sorcerer, druid/cleric -- to me, those are bad story-logic, anyway. Paladins were only allowed to multi-class as clerics and obviously alignment precludes certain combinations.)

In a nutshell:

• Character gets the most favorable bonuses of either class in all cases, but they do -not- stack.
• Character rolls the most favorable hit die when they advance a level in that class. (Now, that is different than 1E; as a further limitation, you could have the character roll both dice and average them as was done in 1E.)
• Experience is divided evenly between both classes as the character progresses, generally. But, DM may rule if one class is used less, little, or even not at all, that the experience division is adjusted proportionately.
• Character get the same starting feats as any character and uses the highest class level (only) to acquire new ones. Fighters and wizard bonus feats -are- awarded as with single class fighter and wizards. The DM -may- want to rule though, that certain class feats are only for single class characters, i.e. "specialists."
• The character gets the mosts favorable base skill number of their two classes and gains more points only when that class rises in level. They may, however, purchase either of their classes class skills at the one for one point cost and benefit from the higher maximum rank.
• Of course, all standard armor penalties apply to muti-classed arcanists, rogues or others as applicable.

That's about it.

Yes, it is greatly advantageous to be mutli-classed at first level. Things begin to even out, though, as the single class characters pull ahead in level. Eventually, going high enough, the multi-classer will really start to eat it. Such is the price one pays for diversity!

Personally, I've never been much into playing characters over 11th or 12th level, nor DM-ing for them, (just call me unambitious) so for me and my group it's sort of a non-issue.

Anyrate, this allows me to play a cleric/wizard or a rogue/sorcerer the way I really like to play them, damn it! If this intrigues you at all, and you are really concerened about balance between characters at lower and higher levels, you might try it with everyone running a multi-classed character, just for kicks (Smallish party, only. That would be ridiculous with a large group of characters.). It is fun.

EDIT: Oh, yes. Prestige classes. Character is still limited to one, not one for each class. You might even want to rule that those (or some of them) are for non-multi classed characters, only.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Very similar to an idea I had. I had thought about just allowing characters to gestalt with a x2 experience multiplier and the requirement that they give up a feat at 1st level for balance purposes. A little after everyone gets to 21st level the gestalted character will get to 14th/14th in two classes.

Another I thought about was just using normal multiclassing, but allow a feat that allows the character to gestalt their next level, it has a requirement that you be 5th level in two classes. You could take it at 12th, 15th, and 18th level and you would end up being roughly equivalent to 13th/13th level by the time everyone got to 20th level.

 

[Voadam]

My view is equal ECL characters should be balanced for combat despite their choice of class combos.

Spellcasting loses a lot in multiclassing by giving up top spell levels.

So I allow caster level to equal character level.

I allow spell slots to stack for multicasters.

I allow feats to bump up caster level spell slots (max of character level).

General multiclassing I use fractional BAB, saves, and no xp penalty.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Really, but for a few mechanical quirks, I always thought of 3.X multiclassing as analogous to 1Ed Dual Classing, and Gestalting was equivalent to 1Ed multiclassing.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Well, the main issues are this:

1. Caster levels not stacking making spell caster spells weaker and weaker as the character levels.

2. Dipping into a class for 1 or 2 levels to create broken combos.

3. Different results coming from the order you take two different classes in. For example, going rogue 1/fighter1 verses fighter 1/rogue 1 is not the same character.

4. Saving throws being min/maxed by clever multiclassing so all of your base saves by level 20 are +12/12/12 or greater. Even using multiclassing to get +14 on some.

5. Overcomplicating characters with dabbling in lots of classes or taking 1 level in every class.

6. Class features not progressing properily to be useful at high level (i.e. turning undead)

These are some of the major issues with the current rules.

Najo, forgive me if I have brought this up with you before. If so, I apologize. But looking over this list I feel the desire to point you in the direction of my sig (and yes, please forgive the self-promotion). But if you want to avoid most if not all of these issues you should really look at a work I just put out through Dreamscarred Press. It is a point-buy character system (meaning you spend your earned XP to buy increases to your characters HD, BAB, Saves, class abilities, casting/psionic progressions, etc), and it honestly negates all the problems you listed. Let me explain a little more...

#1 - you buy the level of casting ability you want with XP you gain. So there is no assumed loss of level unless you as the player opt to spend your XP elsewhere. At which point, that is the player's perrogative.

#2 - With no classes anymore, any class ability can have prerequisites to avoid broken combos. Those class abilities that have broken combos can have their price adjusted if desired. But the point is that DMs are given the power to determine availability of things that can be broken. And don't get me wrong ... point-buy systems can be broken. ALL systems can be broken. But at least in a point-buy system the DM has multiple tools to aleviate broken combos in the for of XP pricing, prereqs, etc.

#3 - Eliminated completely. What you buy first you buy first. If you buy a d10 first and then a d6 you do it because that's what you wanted. If you buy the d6 and then the d10, you do it because you wanted it that way.

#4 - Save prices are predetermined, you buy access to however much you want. But if you want that +12/+12/+12 it will cost you. It can be done ... but it will require some serious sacrifice and present weaknesses that a DM can exploit.

#5 - Giving players the ability to design their own character actually streamlines characters. PLaers are no longer taking a class to get one or two abilities and also getting a few they didn't really care about. Now, they get what they want (and can follow a focus much more clearly). Plus, it really makes players much more happy with their characters since they feel much more empowered. There is much less whining about "not being able to get character idea X to feel right."

#6 - In a point buy system you buy access to the abilities you want. So let's say you want an aminal companion like a druid as well as the ability to rage like a barbarian. You could buy both class abilities as much as you would want ... even up to what a 20th level barbarian and druid would have. Of course, depending on the abilities purchased and the level to which they are purchased will imply a consequence on how much more/less can be bought using the rest f the XP.


Anyway, just a thought. For less than $10 I'd suggest checking it out. As a promotional I'll even throw in a link to an Excel Character Calculator so that you don't even have to do any of the math, and that's available for free: HERE {You do have to be registered and logged into the forums to see it, though. It should be in the 8th post on that page.} But it's a free download to anyone that wants it. It'll let you play with the system and see the pricing as a completely free gesture. But ... you won't be able to do a character completely because there are a few things like skills and class abilities and spell/manifesting pricings that need to be explained in the work. I'll trust that anyone appreciating the Excel sheet will buy the Complete Control work to go with it. Especially DMs won't be sorry they spent the money. Oh, and for the record thatthread I've linked to is my personal PbP I am running over on DSP's forums. If you want to post questions about COmplete COntrol (the point-buy work) please see the link in my sig about the FAQ thread. I'll be happy to answer questions about Complete Control there!

Anyway, forgive my intrusion. I just love what multiclassing should be able to do in 3.5 but was always frustrated by how ineffective the characters were under the rules. So I created a system that lets me multiclass the way I've always wanted. When I see a conversation about multi-classing in 3.5 I just want to share my work so that others who are seeking the same thing as me can benefit from my labor. So please, do check it out!

 

[Kask]

1. Caster levels not stacking making spell caster spells weaker and weaker as the character levels.

Casters are too powerful compared to other classes already. No problem to fix.

2. Dipping into a class for 1 or 2 levels to create broken combos.

EX penalties already exist to punish this behavior.

3. Different results coming from the order you take two different classes in. For example, going rogue 1/fighter1 verses fighter 1/rogue 1 is not the same character.

The differences are too small to bother with unless the player is an obsessive min//maxer

4. Saving throws being min/maxed by clever multiclassing so all of your base saves by level 20 are +12/12/12 or greater. Even using multiclassing to get +14 on some.

How many classes are involved in this?

5. Overcomplicating characters with dabbling in lots of classes or taking 1 level in every class.

If the player wants large XP penalties and have a PC that lags the rest of the group, let him.

6. Class features not progressing properily to be useful at high level (i.e. turning undead)

Clerics are mega powerful at high level. You want them to be ever MORE powerful?

 

[Max Money AWA]

I'm writing up a new campaign "book" using several of the ideas used above. I am using fractional stats from UA as well as spell points. I am working with the assumption listed up thread that every class has some working knowledge of both fighting and casting. To that end, each class will have a spell point progression. I am going old school and introducing a fourth BAB, equal to a poor saving throw, for wizards and shifting the rogue's BAB down to +1 per two levels to off-set some of the "power" inherent in these two classes.

Caster level will be changed as well. Casters get full levels with casters being cleric, druid, wizard (Note: No sorcerers because of spell point use as it would be redundant). Non-casters would add half levels with non-casters being barbarian, fighter, paladin, ranger and rogue.

Bards and monks would get tweaked some; bards will get bumped to full casters with a different spell point progression and monks would get spell points to power the different class abilities which will get expanded.

The other main sticking point I would fix is prestige classes. I do not like prestige classes at all. All the abilities from the different prestige classes, both cool and un-cool, will either become feats or optional class abilities for the base classes.

This is a work in progress.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Another fix would be the traditional method of fixing casting, using feats. Allow Practiced Spellcaster then allow a nonEpic version of Improved Spell Capacity. It gives you a spell slot of one level higher than you can normally cast, but you cannot cast spells of levels higher than you caster level. Then allow Spellslinger from Modern d20 with the caveat that you can't cast more spells of any level than a single classed caster with a class level equal to your caster level.

 

[glass]

Casters are too powerful compared to other classes already. No problem to fix.

Single class caster are powerful. Multiclassed caster really, really aren't. That's kinda the point!

If the player wants large XP penalties and have a PC that lags the rest of the group, let him.

Even in those rare games where XP penalties haven't been houseruled into oblivion, there is no penalty for taking 2 levels in 10 different classes.

Clerics are mega powerful at high level. You want them to be ever MORE powerful?

Single class clerics are powerful, but TU is still useless (except for powering [Divine] feats). Multiclass clerics don't suffer as much as wizards etc, but the do suffer.


glass.

 

[Kask]

Single class caster are powerful. Multiclassed caster really, really aren't. That's kinda the point!

So, you think a Cleric/Wiz is weaker than a fighter?, a Rogue?, a Ranger?