Brainstorm 3.x Multiclassing

[Angrydad]

Well, the main issues are this:

1. Caster levels not stacking making spell caster spells weaker and weaker as the character levels.

2. Dipping into a class for 1 or 2 levels to create broken combos.

3. Different results coming from the order you take two different classes in. For example, going rogue 1/fighter1 verses fighter 1/rogue 1 is not the same character.

4. Saving throws being min/maxed by clever multiclassing so all of your base saves by level 20 are +12/12/12 or greater. Even using multiclassing to get +14 on some.

5. Overcomplicating characters with dabbling in lots of classes or taking 1 level in every class.

6. Class features not progressing properily to be useful at high level (i.e. turning undead)

These are some of the major issues with the current rules.

1. If you're worried about losing caster levels then don't multiclass in the first place. It's that simple. Warriors lose a lot of BAB and HP potential for going into a wizard/sorceror class, so it's a decent trade off.
2. What broken combos are you referring to? I'm just curious. Also, if it's a known broken combo, just DM it up and say "No".
3. Of course you're going to get very different characters if you take the level of rogue or fighter at 1st level. The rogue-->fighter is going to have a ton of skills and skill points while the fighter-->rogue will have more HP (though that's about the only advantage I can think of). It's all a matter of what flavor you're trying to add to the character.
4. Just use the fractional bonuses for Saves and such. I know it's a hassle, but if your players seem intent on abusing multiclassing to get huge bonuses.......
5. If a character takes one level in every class they'll be very complicated, but they'll take a huge XP penalty if they then don't keep all those classes within a level of each other.
6. Well, part of multiclassing is giving up some of the perks of one class to gain perks from another, so I'd just say let them deal with it. If they don't like losing out on spellcaster levels, turning ability, etc. then they shouldn't multiclass in the first place.

 

[Runestar]

5. If a character takes one level in every class they'll be very complicated, but they'll take a huge XP penalty if they then don't keep all those classes within a level of each other.

Interesting thing is that the xp multiclassing penalty is actually more of a hindrance than a help. For example, if you took 2 lvs in each of 5 classes/prcs, you don't suffer any drawbacks. But if you went elven rogue1/fighter3, you get a 20% xp penalty. Yet which is the one you would want to nip in the bud more?

 

[Kerrick]

1. Caster levels not stacking making spell caster spells weaker and weaker as the character levels.

Use the UA variant.

2. Dipping into a class for 1 or 2 levels to create broken combos.

That's the fault of a) crappy class design (Shadowdancer) and/or b) DMs not paying attention to what their players are doing. But... CharOp creations aside, how many people actually make PCs like that? Is it realy as prevalent a problem as everyone makes out?

3. Different results coming from the order you take two different classes in. For example, going rogue 1/fighter1 verses fighter 1/rogue 1 is not the same character.

Ditch the cross-class skill system.

4. Saving throws being min/maxed by clever multiclassing so all of your base saves by level 20 are +12/12/12 or greater. Even using multiclassing to get +14 on some.

Wow, that's impressive.

5. Overcomplicating characters with dabbling in lots of classes or taking 1 level in every class.

See 2, above.

6. Class features not progressing properily to be useful at high level (i.e. turning undead)

You could use a variant of the UA rule for spellcasters. But really, class abilities are there to reward people who gain levels in that class. It's not like spellcasting, where everyone and their second cousin has it.

 

[Runestar]

That's the fault of a) crappy class design (Shadowdancer) and/or b) DMs not paying attention to what their players are doing. But... CharOp creations aside, how many people actually make PCs like that? Is it realy as prevalent a problem as everyone makes out?

I am not sure if that is even necessarily a problem. Classes are a metagame concept to begin with. If you are able to flesh out your character concept with just 1 class (or are comfortable with that), all the better. But if your concept requires aggressive multiclassing and dipping in a myriad of different classes, then carte blanche should be given until your final goal is achieved.

I have played a warblade1/monk2/warblade+5/swordsage1/warblade+2/swordsage+1/warblade+3/master of nine5. Or at least, that was how I mapped him out, the game never went past lv12. Not certain if it poses a problem in your book, but it sure didn't in mine. It proved to be everything one could hope for from a "monkish" build and more.

 

[Nadaka]

1: The easiest solution to the multiclass caster issue is to base "caster level" on character level without affecting the level of spells being granted. This would make the multiclasser effective against SR and allow the spells themselves to scale up as they normally do without giving too much with a single level.

This solution is not ideal however due to the exponential increase in power with increasing spell levels. A 10 cleric/ 10 wizard would still only have access to 5th level spells, even if they have a caster level of 20 for both classes.

2: Most other changes, ones that grants higher levels of spells, would either require a dramatic rewrite of how the spell casting classes work, or provide too great an incentive to dip in spellcasting classes.

2a: taking the Bo9S model that adds 1/2 caster level for every other class for a multiclass caster...

Paladin 18/ Cleric 1/ Sorcerer 1 would have everything a level 18 paladin has, + level 5 cleric spells + level 5 sorcerer spells.

2b: you could use a system similar to 2a with a few modifications. Perhaps the highest level of spells that you can cast could be limited in some way to class level.

The above p18/c1/s1 would only be gaining 1st level spell slots (with the same number of slots as a caster level 10 character, and spells used effectively at caster level 10).

However a cleric 10/wizard 10 would have caster level 15 for all spells and be able to use spells of up to spell level 8. That might be a little powerful, but it does require MAD.

2c: Perhaps one could create a generic PRC that can combine the qualities of any two classes? When taking a +A and +B level, use the better of BAB, Saves, HP, Skills, etc. With a requirement of 3 levels in each of the two classes.

Level	abilities
1	+1 level Class A, +1 level Class B
2	+1 level Class A
3	+1 level Class b
4	+1 level Class A, +1 level Class B
5	+1 level Class A
6	+1 level Class B
7	+1 level Class A, +1 level Class B
8	+1 level Class A
9	+1 level Class B
10	+1 level Class A, +1 level Class B

 

[Greg K]

One of my houserules is that the automatic armor and weapon proficiencies granted by classes are only granted to first level characters. After first level, the only way to gain new armor and weapon proficiencies is via feats (including fighter class style bonus feats).

Another house rule that I am going to use is the mechanics for the 4e unified save progression. Base Classes that grant good save bonuses only grant their save bonuses to first level characters. PrCs no longer grant bonuses to save categories.

 

[Runestar]

Another house rule that I am going to use is the mechanics for the 4e unified save progression. Base Classes that grant good save bonuses only grant their save bonuses to first level characters. PrCs no longer grant bonuses to save categories.

What different is that from the fractional save-based system? You would just add +1/2 from a class with a good save, and +1/3 from a class with a poor save, then round down. So a fighter3/wizard1/rogue1 would have a fort save of 2+1/2+1/3+1/3, or 3.166, or +3. Naturally, you disregard the +2 from subsequent classes/prcs.

Am I understanding it correctly?

 

[Kerrick]

I have played a warblade1/monk2/warblade+5/swordsage1/warblade+2/swordsage+1/warblade+3/master of nine5. Or at least, that was how I mapped him out, the game never went past lv12. Not certain if it poses a problem in your book, but it sure didn't in mine. It proved to be everything one could hope for from a "monkish" build and more.

So... a Warblade 10/monk 2/swordsage 2/Master of Nine 5. I don't know what any of those classes do (besides the monk), so I can't really comment on "monkishness" except to say that the base monk isn't very monkish. I mean, if you need a specific build like that, it just supports my point that the base classes are crappily designed. But that's really beside the point.

1: The easiest solution to the multiclass caster issue is to base "caster level" on character level without affecting the level of spells being granted. This would make the multiclasser effective against SR and allow the spells themselves to scale up as they normally do without giving too much with a single level.

There's a discussion going on over in the "Other d20 Games" forum in the "What is Pathfinder doing about multiclassing?" thread; it's currently focused around working out a system for effectively multiclassing spellcasters.

This solution is not ideal however due to the exponential increase in power with increasing spell levels. A 10 cleric/ 10 wizard would still only have access to 5th level spells, even if they have a caster level of 20 for both classes.

That and the supposition (I won't call it a fact, since no one's produced evidence to support it) that said PC, who would have CL 15 or 20 but only 5th level spells, wouldn't be effective against enemies of equal level.

2a: taking the Bo9S model that adds 1/2 caster level for every other class for a multiclass caster...

I think that gives too much. I like the UA model, where you get caster levels (but not new spells) from other classes, but the fraction is dependent on the other classes' abilities - full caster progression grants 1:1, half-casters grant 1/2, and everything else is 1/4. It's not a perfect system, but it could work with some tweaking, I think.

2b: you could use a system similar to 2a with a few modifications. Perhaps the highest level of spells that you can cast could be limited in some way to class level.

The above p18/c1/s1 would only be gaining 1st level spell slots (with the same number of slots as a caster level 10 character, and spells used effectively at caster level 10).

This is a good idea. Maybe grant higher-level slots, but not higher-level spells. For example, your Pal 18/Clr 1/Sor 1: He would be Pal 19/Clr 10/Sor 10 (caster levels), so he'd have access to 5th level spell slots in cleric and sorcerer, but couldn't cast any spells above 1st. So, you could cast a crapload of 1st level spells - let's say cure light wounds and magic missile - as 5th level spells. Their save DCs would be 5th level, and since you're CL 10, you get 1d8+5 hp cured or 5 magic missiles.

As I wrote this, I thought that maybe some of the levels you gain from other classes actually DO count for spell levels - say half the caster levels. So, for example, the PC would be gaining 9 levels from his paladin class; half of those levels add to the base cleric/sorcerer levels, which means you'd have access to 3rd level spells in each class (5th level caster) but have an effective caster level of 10. The only problem with this is that it takes a little math to keep straight.

2c: Perhaps one could create a generic PRC that can combine the qualities of any two classes? When taking a +A and +B level, use the better of BAB, Saves, HP, Skills, etc. With a requirement of 3 levels in each of the two classes.

We already have those - they're called the Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge, etc. PrCs are only a band-aid to close a bleeding wound. What we need is an actual bandage and some stitches.

 

[Knightfall]

One of my houserules is that the automatic armor and weapon proficiencies granted by classes are only granted to first level characters. After first level, the only way to gain new armor and weapon proficiencies is via feats (including fighter class style bonus feats).

I like this idea. I might steal it for my 3e campaign worlds.

 

[Kerrick]

I was playing around with some stuff after making my last post, and I came up with this:

All character classes have a magic rating, which increases by level much like base attack bonus. For a multiclass character, add up the character’s magic ratings from each of her classes to find the character’s total magic rating.

For example, a 6th-level wizard/4th-level rogue is treated as a 7th-level caster for determining the range, duration, and other effects of her spells. Her summon monster spells last for 7 rounds, her lightning bolts inflict 7d6 damage, she rolls 1d20+7 for dispel checks, caster level checks to overcome spell resistance, and so forth. She still doesn’t get 4th-level spells (as a normal 7th-level wizard would).

The following restrictions apply, however:

*Only the highest bonus is used.

*A character's effective caster level in any spellcasting class cannot be increased by more than three times the base value. For example, a Clr 15/Wiz 2 would normally gain 15 levels from his cleric side (so he would cast spells as a Wiz 17), but by this rule, he would be limited to Wiz 8 (he'd gain three times his base value, or +6).

*A magic rating gained from a class can't be added to that class - in this case, you use the next higher rating for the highest-level class. For example, a Clr 10/Wiz 8 would add 8 levels to the cleric, not 10.

A character's caster level in any spellcasting class cannot be increased to more than double the base value in this manner, however. For example, the Clr 15/Wiz 2 from above would gain two effective caster levels added to his cleric class (but he wouldn't gain any new spells); he would gain 6 effective caster levels to his wizard class, and 2 of those levels would be actual caster levels. So, in effect, he'd be a Clr 17/Wiz 4 with access to 7th level cleric spells and 2nd level wizard spells (as a Wiz 4).

If the character gains an equal bonus from all classes, the bonus levels from one class are divided equally among them all. For example, a Clr 10/Wiz 10 would gain +10 effective caster levels and +2 actual levels; these would be split evenly - Clr 20 (11)/Wiz 20 (11). That is, the character would have an effective caster cleric and wizard caster level of 20, and an actual caster level (for access to spells) of 11.


Here are some of the random class cominations I used. I mostly tried spellcasters, but I also tossed in a Clr/Ftr combo.

Clr 10/Wiz 15/Drd 5

+10 (Clr), +15 (Wiz), +5 (Drd)

Clr 20 (10)/Wiz 20 (17)/Drd 20 (12)

This was the first one I came up with, and it resulted in the first and third restrictions. Otherwise, you'd have a Clr 20 (10)/Wiz 30 (22)/Drd 20 (12), which would be ungodly.

Clr 10/Wiz 10

+10 (Clr), +10 (Wiz)

Clr 15 (12)/Wiz 15 (12)

This one gave me the last restriction (if all the bonuses are the same, they're divided equally). I just couldn't see a Clr 20 (15)/Wiz 20 (15) at 20th character level.

Clr 10/Ftr 10

+10 (Clr), +2 (Ftr)

Clr 12 (11)/Ftr 10

I don't think this is gimping the cleric too much, since he's got 10 levels of fighter to fall back on. Even a wizard wouldn't be too hard off, IMO.

And finally, from the other thread...

Clr 2/Wiz 3/Drd 3/Sor 4

+2 (Clr), +3 (Wiz), +3 (Drd), +4 (Sor)

Clr 6 (4)/Wiz 7 (5)/Drd 7 (5)/Sor 7 (5)

Pretty straightforward - since Sorcerer grants the highest bonus, you add +4 to all classes except sorcerer; that one gets +3. What you end up with is a L 10 PC with 19 caster levels of spells and 17 effective caster levels. He'd certainly be able to hold his own... maybe a bit too well. I'm not sure how to handle this one, though.