Brainstorming Daze

[Aegeri]

There are monsters in monster vault that dominate IIRC, the succubus being the obvious contender. There are almost monsters in MM3 that can hilariously automatically dominate you if you dominate them (and they are unaffected by your dominate). The Star Spawn of Ulban or whatever it is I think is the culprit there.

In saying that, there are far less creatures that spam dominate now than before. It's also nowhere near as important for making challenging encounters at epic.

 

[BobTheNob]

Stun is a particular problem for me because it is on so many damn powers miss effects. A power should never ever ever ever stun on a miss, yet some of them actually do. A good example (and one that is quite abusable) is the blood mages destructive salutation. An area burst 3 stun (save ends) and stun (EoNT on miss). That's just absurd.

I have had that very spell lock down 4 level 21 demons for almost an entire encounter! Its a good thing it does crappy damage and has a small area....oh wait! No it doesnt! Too much, just too much.

And possibly a puppy.

A stun resistant Demon puppy?

 

[Aegeri]

The kind of puppy that comes in a box and you open it up and are all, oh man! That's a puppy in a box! What an awesome surprise!

Preferably we have air holes in the box this time.

 

[andy3k]

Although it makes things more complicated, other options that have been discussed for dazed and stunned include combinations of: slowed; -2 or -5 to hit; missing actions (minor, move, or standard); offers combat advantage; weakened; etc.

To some extent, I'd rather severely hamper a character with conditions than leave them little in the way of options. Stunned is no fun because there is nothing to do. Only allowing a minor and a move still leaves precious little to do for many characters (some classes can achieve more with those actions that others) - still kinda boring. What if I could take all my actions but be slowed, weakened, -5 to attack rolls and skill checks, and offer combat advantage? I still have plenty of choices, and I can still be useful, but I am hampered significantly. Dazed could be less punishing but still hampering.

Remember, we aren't trying for realism, we're trying for fun and balanced.

 

[Mengu]

I also don't see daze as a big problem, unless a monster can do it at-will. As long as it's on a recharge or encounter power, it's fine.

Stun, I have house ruled as dazed and -5 penalty to attack. I still use it very rarely.

And in games where stun is used as is, and frequently, I don't want to play a character beyond level 6 without Superior Will. I also try my best to pick up a power to give me blindsight, at least for a short while. Stunned and blinded are two conditions I hate to have inflicted upon my characters, so I will do anything I can to find solutions around them.

 

[Dausuul]

To some extent, I'd rather severely hamper a character with conditions than leave them little in the way of options. Stunned is no fun because there is nothing to do. Only allowing a minor and a move still leaves precious little to do for many characters (some classes can achieve more with those actions that others) - still kinda boring. What if I could take all my actions but be slowed, weakened, -5 to attack rolls and skill checks, and offer combat advantage? I still have plenty of choices, and I can still be useful, but I am hampered significantly. Dazed could be less punishing but still hampering.

Sounds like a massive pain to apply at the table. "Okay, I'm stunned. Let's see. I could move over here and attack the lackey--it's at a -5, but what else am I gonna do? Oh, that's right, I'm slowed, can't move that far. Well, I'll attack the wizard then. I'll use Sure Strike, I can probably do enough damage to drop him if I hit. What's that? I'm weakened too? Uh... maybe I'll just make a Heal check to give Bob a saving throw. Does the penalty apply to that too? I don't remember..."

One of the strong points of 4E's condition system is that the conditions are simple to remember. Weakened = half damage. Slowed = speed reduced to 2. Dazed = one standard action and combat advantage. Stunned = no actions and combat advantage.

IMO, the simplest fix would be to have stunned work like dazed, but give you one move action instead of one standard action. (Maybe include a rule that you can't sustain powers when stunned--I think it's important to have a way to disrupt someone's concentration.)

 

[OnlineDM]

I like the way this thread has gone. I, too, am okay with Daze as-is, as long as it's used sparingly (as Mengu said, at-will Daze is a problem). I'm loving some of the discussion I'm seeing about modifying Stunned, though. Dazed with a -5 to attack, one action that can't be a standard (possibly disallowing sustains as well)... those seem interesting to me.

I kind of like the idea of making Stunned into Dazed with a rider that disallows standard actions (and no action points, either). Being Stunned should still be miserable, but letting the character do SOMETHING (even if it's just running away) is better than nothing.

 

[NewJeffCT]

My players seem okay with daze & stun so far, as dazed in 3.5 was that you could take no actions, but could defend yourself. (we ended a long running 3.5 campaign last year)

Stunned was dazed, plus you drop everything you're holding, take a -2 penalty to AC and lose any DEX bonus to AC.

So, they love 4E conditions so far.

 

[Neubert]

I had an idea about how to change stun as I was reading this thread (but before all the suggestions were posted), so I made a new thread about it:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/305515-nerfing-stun.html

A lot of good suggestions in this thread as well!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I like stun.

I don´t like EONT circumventing granted saving throws.

If you are affected by any condition, a granted saving throw should just allow one. It would be a matter of a single sentence errata.

I also would like all powers with miss efects UEONT have an after effect on the HIT line, that extends the duration for the condition after a successful saving throw to the end of your next turn.

A solo monster on the other hand should be allowed to save against all conditions at the end of its turn, even those that normally allow no saving throw.

Area stun powers should be very very rare.