Brainstorming Daze

[andy3k]

The original suggestion that a daze move the PC down in initiative order is not balanced. At worst, it means that a PC goes after the monsters instead of before and becomes equivalent to missing one's turn (a stun until start of turn). At the least, the PC goes after some of his companions instead of before - in some cases, that might even be beneficial. Then there are all manner of possibilities in-between. The results are too variable.

If dazed is unfun because it takes away too many actions, maybe dazed only removes a minor OR a move, and also applies -2 to attack and skill checks.

.... which makes me think that I should invent a term for the condition "-2 to attack and skill checks" .... will "dazzled" work?

 

[jbear]

I haven't had any problem with Daze or Stun or any condition to date from a DM perspective.

There have been combats that I've shut PCs down with conditions. Those combats have been less enjoyable for those players I'm sure. But I always keep a mental track of who was dealt to last time and cycle through my players so eveyone gets a fair share of the suffering. Okay, this can't always happen, as some players step in front of the danger bus more often than others, but either way, no one gets shut down or severly hampered every single time.

My campaign isn't Eberron, but I have allowed the Cleric the Mark of Healing feat. Everytime she heals someone they get a Saving Throw. She also has the Sacred Flame at will power which grants a Saving Throw. Hymn of Resurgence encounter power ... big blast that allows Allies inside to make a Saving Throw. The Sorceror has an Amulet that allows a re-roll of a failed S.T... etc. etc. My group can deal with conditions that allow a Saving Throw. The rough ones are the End of Next turn conditions.

But, I don't know ... Stun ... Dominate ... Daze ... Blind ... of course players don't want those conditions placed on their characters. They don't want to die either. But the possibility of death makes the game what it is. The possibility of being taken out of combat or being turned on your allies ... for me at least, is fun. Monsters that have the ability to do that need to be brought down as soon as possible. Public enemy number one. The brutes can wait.

So, while I disagree that these conditions are too harsh and unfun ( I think the "You are disentegrated condition" is less fun), I do agree with Aegeri in so far as Stun should never apply on a miss.

 

[Dausuul]

But, I don't know ... Stun ... Dominate ... Daze ... Blind ... of course players don't want those conditions placed on their characters. They don't want to die either. But the possibility of death makes the game what it is. The possibility of being taken out of combat or being turned on your allies ... for me at least, is fun. Monsters that have the ability to do that need to be brought down as soon as possible. Public enemy number one. The brutes can wait.

So, while I disagree that these conditions are too harsh and unfun ( I think the "You are disentegrated condition" is less fun), I do agree with Aegeri in so far as Stun should never apply on a miss.

There's a crucial distinction between "making a PC's life painful" and "making a PC's life boring." The former is just fine, and every DM should do it on a regular basis. The latter should be avoided when possible.

Suppose there's an effect that turns a PC into a stone statue for the duration of the encounter, while being surrounded by an aura 50 that inflicts a -10 penalty on enemy attacks and defenses. That's quite beneficial to the PC, but it's also very boring. You just stand there and emanate while your friends mop up the bad guys. Conversely, take an effect that sends a PC into an extradimensional maze to battle a higher-level foe, with a clock ticking down that will leave her lost in the void forever if she doesn't beat her enemy and escape in time. That's a massive "screw you" to the PC, practically a death sentence--but it sure ain't boring!

Stun is a problem, not because it makes your life hard, but because it makes your life boring. You don't have any decisions to make or dice to roll, you just skip your turn. Dominate is better than stun, because you get to do something... but it's not much better, because you don't get any say in what that something is. Daze is the least boring of the three; your options are limited but by no means negated.

One possibility that might help with "fugue state" effects (daze, stun, dominate) would be to institute a "shock therapy" rule. The idea here is that you can deliberately cause yourself pain (cutting yourself with a dagger, burning yourself, et cetera) in order to snap out of a fugue. At the start of your turn, you voluntarily take damage equal to your healing surge value, and make a saving throw. If you make the save, the fugue state ends. If not, you just wasted a bunch of hit points. It's a nasty choice, but it is a choice, giving you something to do.

 

[jbear]

I do know what your saying, and while I appreciate the point of view the game should be non-stop fun for the players, I do think that when Stunned and in a life threatening situation, you are more frustrated, pulling your hair out, desperately looking for a solution as fast as possible to get Unstunned than bored. Besides I also think change of pace makes those sweet moments sweeter. But that's just me, and only one way of looking at things.

Fine, if your Stunned and your fellow players can blasely deal with the situation, I can imagine that is boring.

I can remember one occaision where the castle my players were trapped in was under invasion by a massive horde of barbarians. The door they were walking past suddenly burst open, Surprising them. Only two barbarians could get at them through the door but they were massively hard hitting Brutes. One of them had a Stun Encounter power with an EoNT effect. So, there was the poor little bow ranger stuck next to these monsters as they wailed away on her and hope of getting out of there before dying looked slim. But her allies thought fast on their feet and got coordinated. The Drow Sorceror dropped her Cloud of Darkness and Deep Shroud as the Paladin picked up the Stunned and nearly dead Ranger and hauled her over her shoulder. The Cloud stayed there confusing the Barbarians as the entire party stealthed away under the cover of Deep Shroud and hid til the barbarian incursion washed past them to another area of the castle. It wasn't boring. A surprise round and 2 normal rounds and everyone was on the edge of their seats.

Anyway, I don't think this is a 'This needs to be errated' type issue. More of a House Rule discussion what's going on at the moment.

 

[Dausuul]

I do know what your saying, and while I appreciate the point of view the game should be non-stop fun for the players, I do think that when Stunned and in a life threatening situation, you are more frustrated, pulling your hair out, desperately looking for a solution as fast as possible to get Unstunned than bored.

But there is no solution, which is why it's boring. Stun prevents you from acting; unless you have some special ability that kicks in without requiring an action, there's nothing you can do to un-stun yourself. All you can do is sit there. At best, one of your fellow PCs can come over to you and make a Heal check to give you a saving throw, but since the Heal check is itself a standard action and it has only a 55% chance of working, it's often tactically smarter to let you come out of it on your own.

I can remember one occaision where the castle my players were trapped in was under invasion by a massive horde of barbarians. ... The Drow Sorceror dropped her Cloud of Darkness and Deep Shroud as the Paladin picked up the Stunned and nearly dead Ranger and hauled her over her shoulder. The Cloud stayed there confusing the Barbarians as the entire party stealthed away under the cover of Deep Shroud and hid til the barbarian incursion washed past them to another area of the castle. It wasn't boring. A surprise round and 2 normal rounds and everyone was on the edge of their seats.

Sure, but that's the rare case in which a stun effect pushes a party member right to the edge of death. Most stuns aren't so dire. You sit out a round or two; it hurts your party's chances but it's not going to swing the battle one way or the other by itself.

 

[Mengu]

But, I don't know ... Stun ... Dominate ... Daze ... Blind ... of course players don't want those conditions placed on their characters. They don't want to die either. But the possibility of death makes the game what it is. The possibility of being taken out of combat or being turned on your allies ... for me at least, is fun.

It's not so much the threat of death that people are objecting to, but I think most players would rather die because there were one too many monsters, than die because they were locked down and couldn't do anything. You could be knee deep in gore and fighting a throng of zombies to stay alive, or you could be stunned, dazed, blinded, and getting slapped around like a little child. The former is more fun than the latter.

Edit: And this is what happens when I forget to click "post" for 45 minutes, sorry about the repeat argument.

 

[jbear]

But there is no solution, which is why it's boring. Stun prevents you from acting; unless you have some special ability that kicks in without requiring an action, there's nothing you can do to un-stun yourself. All you can do is sit there. At best, one of your fellow PCs can come over to you and make a Heal check to give you a saving throw, but since the Heal check is itself a standard action and it has only a 55% chance of working, it's often tactically smarter to let you come out of it on your own.



Sure, but that's the rare case in which a stun effect pushes a party member right to the edge of death. Most stuns aren't so dire. You sit out a round or two; it hurts your party's chances but it's not going to swing the battle one way or the other by itself.

Well I can think of more solutions to Stun than a Heal check. Sure, most of them come from your allies,, fair enough.

As I mentioned, all healers have access to a feat that allows a save with any healing power. Clerics have a bunch of other ways to hand out saves. Loads of objects exist to make Saves more reliable. Feats that raise SThrow modifiers.

But there is, as mentioned the very strong Superior Will feat negates this 55% of the time. Wardens do too. (What happens when Warden take this feat? )

Sorceror's have access to an encounter power where they can even act normally when dead let alone stunned for a round. (See Maiden's Waking)

Fighter's with Endurance training can shake it off (See Clearheaded) or interrupt the attack in question for example (Shield Bash)

Swordmages get Interrupts that can be played after a hit (See Dimensional Vortex)

Paladins also get loads of powers that dish out Saving Throws as well.

That's off the top of my head. If it's a big enough issue for the players to consider either nerfing the condition or simply not using it in the game, maybe it's worth investing a feat or a power in as well.

 

[jbear]

It's not so much the threat of death that people are objecting to, but I think most players would rather die because there were one too many monsters, than die because they were locked down and couldn't do anything. You could be knee deep in gore and fighting a throng of zombies to stay alive, or you could be stunned, dazed, blinded, and getting slapped around like a little child. The former is more fun than the latter.

Edit: And this is what happens when I forget to click "post" for 45 minutes, sorry about the repeat argument.

Hehehe, personally I'd rather be stunned than dying.

You get to do exactly the same thing when you are dying: Roll a Saving Throw.

 

[jbear]

Hehehe, personally I'd rather be stunned than dying.

You get to do exactly the same thing when you are dying: Roll a Saving Throw.

Without wanting to get sidetracked, but I remember playing 3.5. Hold person was what ... a 2nd level spell? Or third? That spell was as common as mud. If you failed your saving throw, you were gone for the whole fight pretty much.

Stun seems to be far less common. Every mage and his dog had a Hold Person Spell up his sleeve.

 

[OnlineDM]

Hehehe, personally I'd rather be stunned than dying.

You get to do exactly the same thing when you are dying: Roll a Saving Throw.

True, IF the Stunned condition is "save ends." It's also common to be Stunned for a turn, in which case your turn is basically skipped (unless you are also taking ongoing damage or something you get a save against, in which case you still deal with those). At least with the death saving throw you have the chance of getting a 20 and popping back up (usually an exciting moment for the player).

Sorry, I disagree with you and agree with most of the other posters here - Stunned is not a fun condition for anyone. Does that mean that it's unbalanced or that there aren't ways around it or that players can't construct their characters in a way to let them deal with it better? No, there are things that can be done.

But that doesn't change the fact that the condition causes "unfun" at the table, and as such I enjoy the discussion of house rules to improve the condition. So far, my favorite is that Stunned = Dazed, but you're not allowed to take any standard actions or spend action points. Maybe it should allow for Second Wind or Total Defense but no other standard actions.