Brainstorming DEFENSE

[Morrus]

As Lucas mentioned, AGI has been lessened in its omnipresence, so basing DEFENSE on it might work. What do folks think about that proposal in the first post? I'll repeat it here for reference:

All attacks are opposed rolls against a single attribute (usually AGI or WIL, but could be END for poison, etc.) In this way, all attributes are valid targets for attack, although some will rarely be so.

- One skill dice pool (acrobatics, etc.) can be added to a defending attribute just like one can be added to an attacking dice pool
- Both are limited to career grade total as size of dice pool
- The defending values are precalculated as averages rather than rolled live for speed of play (using 4 not 3.5; ease of calculation plus favoring defender slightly)
- Size is a +/2 per category above or below Medium
- Ranged attacks are always INT
- Melee attacks are STR or AGI
- Magic/psionic attacks are MAG or PSI

This, of course, makes big critters auto-hits. You'll always hit the dragon. So critters like that would be all about the SOAK.

Armor which offers SOAK likely then needs a D&D-style AGI penalty to DEFENSE. This could be easy (simply light, medium, heavy giving a quick -2 for medium and -4 for heavy armor).

Example.

Smallfolk, AGI 7, leather armor (light) -- DEFENSE is (3d6 x 4) +2 (size) + (1d6 x 4) (acrobatics) = 18.

Ogron, heavy battlesuit, AGI 4 -- DEFENSE (2d6 x 4) -2 (size) -4 (armor) = 2. Hmmm. DEFENSE 0 but a SOAK of 10+.

If we let the Ogron use his 10 STR instead -- DEFENSE (4d6 x 4) -2 (size) -4 (armor) = 10.

I can't help but feel that if STR or END is allowed as DEFENSE, it's infringing on the role of SOAK. SOAK would have to very clearly be described as armor, not inherent endurance/toughness. Does a dragon have a high END or does it have a high SOAK?

 

[Morrus]

I'm going to plus the N.E.W. iconics into this and see what happens.

Sasha: 6, SOAK 5
AGI 2d6 = 8
Kevlar coat (med) = -2
Wow, that's low.

Gorrat: 6 or 14, SOAK 10
AGI 2d6 = 8 or END 3d6 = 12
Hardy 1d6 = +4
Basic battlesuit (heavy) = -4
Size = -2

Dr. TikTok: 4 or 12
AGI 1d6 =4 or END 3d6 = 12

Talik: 20, SOAK 4
AGI 4d6 = 16
Acrobatics 1d6 = +4
Leather armor = 0

Ashonn: 21
AGI 3d6 = 12
Acrobatics 1d6 = 4
Star knight +5

Holmes: 6, SOAK 6
AGI 2d6 = 8
Kevlar coat (med) = -2

We get some pretty low scores. With AGI only we have 4, 6, 6, 6, 20, 21. Allowing END it improves a bit to 6, 6, 12, 14, 21, 21.

Still a bit wide range. 6-21 is a heck of a difference.

 

[SKid4]

What is the better outcome?

1) There’s a specific method used to get a high Defense. A character whose concept includes being harder to hit will always use this method. A character whose concept includes being able to absorb damage will not necessarily use this method. If a character isn’t combat-focused, does the player care about any of this?

2) There’s multiple methods used to get a high Defense. All characters can achieve a high Defense regardless of concept. Some might even choose to absorb damage in addition to a high Defense. Everyone is mathematically equivalent.

 

[LucasC]

Your new method produces the following Defenses for my characters: 4, 8, 12, 12, 16, 20, 20

• The 4 is the ogron of the group, so w/out the size penalty, it would be 8
• One of the 20's is for the jedi, so his DEFENSE would go up with the class ability

These options do not account for shields, presumably the fellow with a 4 DEFENSE would still carry his shield and end with a 12. I'd say the shields need to be scaled back some.

The above still produces a very wide range of DEFENSE scores, although if SOAK is retooled and becomes an actual alternative to DEFENSE that might not matter. The ogron, in this instance, would be expected to have enough SOAK to offset his significant armor penalty.

One bit of caution on that front however, don't forget that if defenses fall below a threshold people stop feeling any initiative to actually use tactics in combat. The best battles we've had in N.E.W. have been those the PCs had to use these tactics to win.

And, since we're brainstorming I'll throw out another idea -

Idea 1: Eliminate DEFENSE altogether.

You already have a mechanism in the game, that scales up with level, and is intended to answer the question of "Does this action succeed?" It is of course the Difficulty Chance.

In this option, you'd simply assign a DC to hitting a stationary, Medium-sized target. Let's just call that Routine [10]. You could apply modifiers to it based on the situation, each increasing the challenge (moving +1 DC rank, small +1 dc rank, cover +2 dc ranks, etc.).

In this option, a character doesn't try to get DEFENSE, characters focus on SOAK.

Idea 2: Replace DEFENSE calculation base w/DC


Similar to above, but in this case, rather than eliminating defense, we use it along with character attirbutes to derive a DEFENSE score.

Something like this...

• Start with the base DC (say Difficult [16] in no armor, down 1 DC category by armor weight)
• Add 1 point for every dice pool in AGI and up to 1 associated skill

 

[Pixel]

First of: I don't like the idea of making ranged attacks INT only. Using only Intuition is sort of like saying that you only hit with your gun, bow or whatever because you were lucky, and not skilled.

Second: I think the pooling of dice (2 sets of dice x 3) would probably work fine, if you add some more penalties (like armor size) to reduce defense of low-level characters.

Also, personal opinion: any defense below 10 is basicly worthless and anyone attacking you is more less always gonna hit. 10 makes is so that you at least has a small chance to not get hit. also; any SOAK below 5 is mostly just fluff.

Take the opinions for what they are: opinions. but this is the feeling I've gotten from the play I've done in my group as a player

EDIT: ​Turns out I misunderstood something, INT for avoiding ranged attacks makes perfect sense, but I'd still like to add AGI as an option.

 

[Morrus]

You already have a mechanism in the game, that scales up with level, and is intended to answer the question of "Does this action succeed?" It is of course the Difficulty Chance.

In this option, you'd simply assign a DC to hitting a stationary, Medium-sized target. Let's just call that Routine [10]. You could apply modifiers to it based on the situation, each increasing the challenge (moving +1 DC rank, small +1 dc rank, cover +2 dc ranks, etc.).

In this option, a character doesn't try to get DEFENSE, characters focus on SOAK.

I did consider that, and it does have a certain appeal. My main concern about it is that it pretty much eliminates the dodging/agile character type.

 

[LucasC]

I did consider that, and it does have a certain appeal. My main concern about it is that it pretty much eliminates the dodging/agile character type.

You could build such a character as a Career, with rank abilities that apply dice penalties to the attack roll. Alternately, redefine DEFENSE as a dice penalty that is applied to the attacker. Then you can still access the DC system, and allow AGI to impact DEFENSE.

 

[Morrus]

@LucasC, out of curiosity what happens with your characters if you take the highest of the three physical defenses and simply go with the average opposed roll? (e.g. 6 = 3d6 = 10.5).

And what happens to those same characters if you apply -2 for medium armor and -4 for heavy armor, and -2 for large and +2 for small? Ignoring the jedi bonus for now. Applying one relevant skill (if they have one) as normal for an attribute check.

Here's what I get for the iconics:

Sasha (AGI, medium armor) -- 5 (man, she's terrible!)

Gorrat (STR, heavy armor, large, hardy) -- 10

Dr. TikTok (END) -- 10.5

Talik (AGI, acrobatics) -- 17.5

Ashonn (AGI, acrobatics) -- 14

Holmes (AGI, medium armor) -- 3.5

A range from 3.5 to 17.5 (call it 4 to 18). Heck of a range again. Holmes is an outlier, though, and I think Sasha's just a fairly poor build - few of them are able to make a 5d6 defensive pool, which is a character build thing. If they were built with defensive skills in mind, they'd be a bit better.

 

[LucasC]

Defenses w/out Skills

• 7, 10.5, 10.5, 10.5, 10.5, 12, 14

Defenses w/1 Skill Applied

• 10.5, 10.5, 14, 14, 17.5, 17.5, 19

Defenses in Existing armor w/1 skill applied

• 6.5, 6.5, 10, 10, 13.5, 15, 17.5

In this batch, the jedi character stays at 17.5 as he's wearing no armor. Probably worth noting that w/the shield bonus the 15 would actually be 23.


*Includes a -2 for SIZE

 

[Morrus]

Are they all managing to build 5d6 for attacks?