Brainstorming DEFENSE

[Morrus]

what do you think about base 10 (which I think is the DC to hit anything at a distance that doesn't try to move) and then + agi + acrobatics?

You can't add a flat incrementing value vs. an exponential one; it won't scale. If the defense value is increasing at a rate of 1:1 with AGI increases, but the attack values are increasing at a rate of +1d6 die at 2, +2d6 at 3, +4d6 at 6, +4d6 at 10, etc. very quickly you end up with people who can't even shoot themselves in the head!

This doesn't matter too much at lower levels, but take a high level monster with an AGI of 50 - an attribute of 50 only gives you 9d6 to use. An average roll of around 30, and a max of 54. That same critter is going to have 60+ DEFENSE in that scale. Utterly unhittable, even by itself!

 

[Morrus]

Incidentally, the current system (AGI dice + END dice)*3 does work. It just produces more swingy results than we'd like, making it harder to create appropriate challenges.

One option is to simply say a bit of swinginess is OK. Real life is swingy, after all!

This is pretty much the last "core" thing to nail down. Once this is right, the core system is done. Everything else will be about the peripheral stuff.

 

[SKid4]

Here are some additional thoughts.

1) Size affects Defense and Soak. Smaller creatures gain a Defense bonus. Larger creatures suffer a Defense penalty and gain an equivalent amount of Soak.

2) All characters posseses the same amount of “defensive capacity” (or DefCap), which is level-based to match the maximum attack result. Your Defense score is equal to a base value + size + Agility + modifiers (e.g., magic). Convert Soak into a Defense bonus (e.g., by consulting a table) and add it to your Defense score. If your modified Defense score is less than your DefCap, you gain the remainder in Plot Immunity, which prevents your character from dying… somehow. (DefCap = Defense + Soak bonus + Plot Immunity) This allows non-combatants to survive combat and keep up with combat-focused characters.

2a) You can permanently reduce your Defense score to gain an equivalent amount of Soak.

 

[LucasC]

Here's one to consider -

Assumptions:

• Hit rate target vs. equal leveled enemies = 50%
• Attack pools will stay equal to level for levels 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10
• SOAK is intended to be an ALTERNATIVE to DEFENSE

Attack Pools

Level 5 (5d6) (3 ability, 2 skill)
Level 6 (6d6) (3 ability, 2 skill, 1 item)
Level 7 (7d6) (3 ability, 2 skill, 2 item)
Level 8 (8d6) (4 ability, 2 skill, 2 item)
Level 9 (9d6) (4 ability, 3 skill, 2 item)
Level 10 (10d6) (4 ability, 3 skill, 2 item, 1 other)
Level 11 (10d6)
Level 12 (11d6)
Level 13 (11d6)
Level 14 (12d6)
Level 15 (12d6)​

Deriving Defense

• Light Armor or No Armor: Career level * 3 + Ability Pool + Skill Pool*
• Medium Armor: Career level * 2 + Ability Pool + Skill Pool
• Heavy Armor: Career level * 1 + Ability Pool + Skill Pool

Ability Pool = dice pool of the highest physical attribute
Skill Pool = dice pool of a single defensive skill

Assumed Ability Pools
Level 5, 6, 7 = 3d6
Level 8, 9, 10, 11 = 4d6
Level 12+ = 5d6

Assumed Skill Ranks
Level 5, 6, 7 = 1d6
Level 8, 9, 10 = 2d6
Level 11+ = 3d6

Result

Using a character in no armor or light armor -

• Levels 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 the average attack roll and average DEFENSE score fluctuate from -0.5 to 0.5
• Beginning at level 10, the defender begins to pull away as keeping a high attack pool is more difficult
• Characters that actively seek DEFENSE can get a score requiring about 1 dice extra to hit them
• Armor penalties are severe enough that armor SOAK becomes an alternative route to DEFENSE - be cautious about adding high non-armor SOAK w/out DEFENSE penalties

Other Notes

• Shields would add 1 (small), 2 (medium), or 3 (tower) (this makes a tower shield essentially requires a +1d6 to hit)
• Some characters and/or creatures will be impossible to successfully hit without tactics

*Be cautious about allowing skills such as HARDY to add to END for both deriving HEALTH and DEFENSE.

 

[Morrus]

That's a solid looking approach, though I still fear it'll end up with characters which are identical. What values do you end up with for your party?

I was also thinking about your idea of getting rid of DEFENSE and simply using size as the basis for how hard it is to hit somebody. This is totally random off the top of my head:

Tiny: Demanding [21], SOAK 0
Small: Difficult [16], SOAK 0
Medium: Challenging [13], SOAK 2
Large: Routine [10], SOAK 4
Enormous: Easy [7], SOAK 8
Gigantic: Trivial [4], SOAK 15

Light armor: no change
Medium armor: increase by one size
Heavy armor: increase by two sizes

Small shield: reduce by one size
Medium shield: reduce by two sizes
Large shield: reduce by three sizes

Skills & attributes: add AGI dice pools directly to DEFENSE and END dice pool directly to SOAK

Examples --

Ogron, AGI 4, END 10, hardy, kevlar trenchcoat: 10 (SOAK 8)
Smallfolk, AGI 8, acrobatics, leather armor: 20 (SOAK 2)
Human, AGI 6, no skill, chainmail: 12 (SOAK 7)
T-rex, AGI 2, no skill: 8 (SOAK 8)
Superninja Smallfolk, AGI 12, acrobatics 3, no armor, small shield: 27 (SOAK 0)

 

[LucasC]

Unarmored, my team would be: 20, 21, 21, 21, 22, 24, 24, 29

I'm uncertain what choices they might make regarding armor. The ogron would almost certainly retain his heavy armor, so his AC would drop from 24 to 12.

 

[Morrus]

Unarmored, my team would be: 20, 21, 21, 21, 22, 24, 24, 29.

Yikes. With 5d6, even the lowest (20) is hard to hit. The highest is near impossible!

 

[LucasC]

They're level 6 so I'm rolling 6 dice w/an equal level critter putting the first 4 in the 50/50 zone, the 22, 24, 24 are def. possible and the 29 is a real stretch, but he's the jedi so he should be.

 

[LucasC]

If they were level 5 they'd be: 17, 18, 18, 18, 19, 21, 21, 26

 

[LucasC]

One more thing, you could derive it as:

L

• ight Armor or No Armor: 15 + 3/career rank above 5 + Ability Pool + Skill Pool*
• Medium Armor: 10 + 3/career rank above 5 + Ability Pool + Skill Pool
• Heavy Armor: 5 + 3/career rank above 5 + Ability Pool + Skill Pool

that gives you a flat base to start from, allowing you to adjust the underlying hit assumption but not break the progression.