Brand new DM to 5E and many concerns...

  • Thread starter WhosDaDungeonMaster
  • Start date

Mepher

Adventurer
It's like some old-school DMs just can't handle the idea of low-level wizards actually doing any appreciable damage until they've reached a level where they have enough spell slots to pretty much cast real spells every round in every combat. To them, if a wizard is out of slots, they should just be doing like at maximum 1d4 damage a round, whether that be from cantrips or a using sling. ;)

This was me initially. I have DM'd for 30 years starting with BX and up through 2E. 2E was definitely my bread and butter. A few years ago one of the players in my group decided to DM a Tuesday evening 5E game. I really had no interest but after hearing a couple players raving about it I decided to show up and play a session with them. They were running LMOP and were in Thundertree, getting ready to fight Venomfang (the Green Dragon). Of course my first reaction was to laugh that these 3rd or 4th level characters were going to fight a dragon. Anyways, I spent half the session flipping back and forth through the books trying to make a character, hating the layout of the books while they pushed on in their adventure. Finally I got enough made to at least be playable and I joined the session in time to fight Venomfang. The entire fight was a joke with the party just slaughtering this dragon and taking little damage. The DM in a panic ended up having Venomfang fly off to escape rather than let us kill him so easily. In the end I walked away hating 5e. I thought it was a joke and I pressed on with my 2E games. All the while I was still reading forums here and consuming all the 5E stuff I could to see what I was missing that others seemed to love so much.

My biggest realization was that all these "extra" abilities and hit points that the player's have are needed to offset the new creature abilities and hit points. That DM whose session I played in had no idea how to play that Dragon. Last year I finally decided to go all in and switch to 5E with my group and had all kinds of plans for house rules. I found most of my concerns unwarranted after seeing the mechanics in actual play and haven't implemented any so far. I ended up running my group through LMOP and we had a great time. There were multiple deaths through the adventure (dispelling my myth that 5e players were invincible) including 3 of 5 players dying to the encounter with Venomfang. When he used range (the top of the tower), coupled with Poison Breath it forced the players to move up the tower at him or flee. It ended up being 2 players that rushed up the tower being kill to his 3 attacks per round + breath, and one caster below dying to that same poison breath. All told though when Venomfang finally dropped the party cheered. It was a pretty epic fight at their level and everyone thoroughly enjoyed it.

I make it a point to play the creatures to their abilities. It's easy as an old school DM to overlook those abilities but you are doing yourself, and your player a disservice. Zombies standing back up after they die, Wolves using pack tactics to attack with advantage, or lowly Goblins ambushing from range with their short bows and then hiding as a bonus action. Trust me, if you play their abilities then your players will be happy they have the extra hit points or can hit a little easier.

If you are finding your wizard in the party attacking with his finesse dagger rather then throwing Acid Splash, Firebolt, Poison Spray, Ray of Frost, or even tossing a Light cantrip, using a mage hand to manipulate something during the battle, sending a message to another player across the battlefield about something going on....then your Wizard needs to just pick another character more to his abilities. Everything I just mentioned here is a cantrip and can be done each round. It gives them a lot more flexibility and I would stop worrying the Wizard's ability to hit, it's kinda a non-issue and honestly should only really come into play when they are casting an attack spell. I am sure if that is the case the players will be happy that the wizard can hit when he is saving their lives.

I really did hate 5E in the beginning and now I love it. I am the stereotypical grognard. I thought that only the cleric should be healing, the wizard should have 1 or two spells, the rogue should be the only one finding traps. I hated the rogue sneak attacking every round because to me I equated it to backstab. Now I have realized that it's just their attack, no different than the Ranger using his Hunters Mark, or the Warlock using his hex. Once you get past that sticking point you realize why the players have more hit points, the monsters have more hit points, and they all have special abilities. While 2E was my love for decades, now I look back at some typical combats and think about the Fighter (I swing), the Cleric (I swing or heal), the Wizard (Im out of spells so I throw a dart), the Rogue (I spend 3 rounds trying to sneak, hide, and get in position to backstab), etc...you get the point. Now combat is much more exciting with everyone having meaningful contributions to the fight.

So I guess I took the long way around to tell you the same as the others, give it a try as is and see how it actually plays out for you. I would skip all of the house rules to start and see what works and doesn't. You might find through actual play that much of the rules work just fine.
 
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dave2008

Legend
..., but perhaps there are more people than I thought who are going away from houseruling, dunno.

I don't think that is the issue. Most of the advice has been in the nature of: "play it first. and then see if you need to make adjustments." Which is sound advice for anyone looking to house rule.

I think 5e is one of the easier editions to homebrew / houserule actually, and openly encourages it. Heck, just by including rules options and variants they are letting you know there is not one true way to play and that the system is open to modification. Additionally, the developers themselves have talked about house rules they use.

I think the reaction to his proposal is from people who have played the game for a long time and see the issues with some of his proposed changes. They don't have an issue with changes, but with their experience they see that his proposed changes are generally not a good idea.
 

W

WhosDaDungeonMaster

Guest
So I guess I took the long way around to tell you the same as the others, give it a try as is and see how it actually plays out for you. I would skip all of the house rules to start and see what works and doesn't. You might find through actual play that much of the rules work just fine.

Definitely nothing wrong with the long way. :)

We've played a few times now and hopefully will again Wednesday. As we've gone along, I've asked my players about different ideas and so on. Other than a lengthy explanation about hit points and attacking, it hasn't been too bad. We have a couple minor ideas about things but will play longer before we worry about implementing changes.

For the most part, like all the prior editions of D&D, if you play RAW it plays fine. Some of it you might question the rule, but it works either way.

I think the reaction to his proposal is from people who have played the game for a long time and see the issues with some of his proposed changes. They don't have an issue with changes, but with their experience they see that his proposed changes are generally not a good idea.

You got it, Dave. That was really part of the point. I see potential ways to improve the game to my style of play, and not having played it question how unbalancing the changes might be. Of course, as I stated from the beginning, it has always been my intent to play it for a while first, but I like having my houserules doc for review eventually to see what houserules we might try.
 

dave2008

Legend
Of course, as I stated from the beginning, it has always been my intent to play it for a while first, but I like having my houserules doc for review eventually to see what houserules we might try.

I always seem to bring along my house rules too. I have these in 5e than I did in 1e or 4e, but I still have some.
 

W

WhosDaDungeonMaster

Guest
It is funny, but some of the rules we're coming up with are more about mechanics than balance.

For example, when the players were trying to run down a fleeing orc, all they could do was keep pace because the orc moved 60, they moved 60. Now, considering one of the party is a Drow with Dex 18, you'd think she could run it down easily. And I have yet to find a game mechanic for running other than taking a Dash action, which really is only an extra move.

Could be I'm still missing something as we are learning the rules, but so far... nada.
 


dave2008

Legend
It is funny, but some of the rules we're coming up with are more about mechanics than balance.

For example, when the players were trying to run down a fleeing orc, all they could do was keep pace because the orc moved 60, they moved 60. Now, considering one of the party is a Drow with Dex 18, you'd think she could run it down easily. And I have yet to find a game mechanic for running other than taking a Dash action, which really is only an extra move.

Could be I'm still missing something as we are learning the rules, but so far... nada.

I've never used them, but there are chase rules in the DMG (PG 252-255 I believe). And thread about how to use them on these forums: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?470894-How-the-heck-do-you-use-the-Chase-rules-in-the-DMG

There are also lots of variants and houserules available on line. I feel like there was even an official variant, but I can't seem to find it now.
 

Satyrn

First Post
It is funny, but some of the rules we're coming up with are more about mechanics than balance.

For example, when the players were trying to run down a fleeing orc, all they could do was keep pace because the orc moved 60, they moved 60. Now, considering one of the party is a Drow with Dex 18, you'd think she could run it down easily. And I have yet to find a game mechanic for running other than taking a Dash action, which really is only an extra move.

Could be I'm still missing something as we are learning the rules, but so far... nada.

Just wait till your party tries sneaking around! :.-(
 

TigerStripedDog

First Post
The chase rules are critical, and keep in mind, very few chases involve a long, straight, paved road. Generally the chasers and the chased will have to leap over objects, climb a ridge, duck around trees, etc. Ability checks - Athletics, Acrobatics, etc should come into play. And this is where the PC's will make it or break it. Unless one of them is a monk. In that case the chased NPC (or character) is pretty hosed.

Tiger
 

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