Branimir's Open Letter to Games Workshop

If warhammer was smart, they would dropped the last line. I don't play war hammer and the last line sound like they want to start a fight.

On the contrary. If they didn't include the last line it would be seen as empty rhetoric that was just saying things to say them - and "You will not be missed" has been used for Warhammer as a sign-off certainly since the introduction to 40k Rogue Trader back in the late 80s "But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed . . . ." being the final paragraph.
 

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S'mon

Legend
It's Karl Popper's paradox of tolerance. The argument "if you don't tolerate intolerant people, you are not tolerant!" is hardly a new one.


Popper of course said to tolerate intolerant words, but not to tolerate intolerant acts. So, if you agree with Popper then you tolerate intolerant speech, but you punish attempts to stop others from speaking (or to drown them out, eg by spam-posting).
 

Popper of course said to tolerate intolerant words, but not to tolerate intolerant acts. So, if you agree with Popper then you tolerate intolerant speech, but you punish attempts to stop others from speaking (or to drown them out, eg by spam-posting).

But spam-posting is neither more nor less than words, and not even particularly intolerant ones. This is one of the many places where any attempt to draw a clear distinction between words and other forms of act pretty obviously falls apart. Advocacy is action, period. Not the strongest type of action - but action all the same simply because you've thought it important enough to open your mouth or put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) and others have to pay attention or actively not pay attention.
 


S'mon

Legend
Verbal abuse is an action. Making people feel unsafe or unwelcome is an action.

Well the distinction he drew was between speech (should be allowed) and preventing speech (should not be allowed). I'm not necessarily advocating Popperian tolerance as a guide to message board moderation, BTW. It might have some relevance to regulation of near-monopolies like Facebook & Twitter.

"I'll kill/harm you if you keep talking" is the kind of speech Popper would want stamped out, as I understand it. That would come under 'making people feel unsafe'.
"Republicans have small weiners" is the kind of abusive speech Popper would want tolerated - that does not mean any message board is morally obliged to allow it.
 

Games Workshop definitely has a certain toxic wing to its fandom.

There's a certain part of society that basically idolizes the Imperium of Mankind. . .they look at them and think THAT's what they want things to be like.

Vehemently anti-science, xenophobic, authoritarian, religiously fundamentalist, absurdly militaristic, lead by a cult of personality. . .they're a fascist's dream.

I do wonder how many people get involved with WH40K because the Imperium and its mindset has become something of a memetic thing in some corners of the internet.
 

MGibster

Legend
If warhammer was smart, they would dropped the last line. I don't play war hammer and the last line sound like they want to start a fight.

I agree. Apparently it's a call back to the forward of some of their books where they establish that the universe is terribly dangerous and should you perish "you will not be missed." On one hand I always think it's cool when they throw in tidbits like this for long term fans. On the other hand, it's very easy for fans to miss what they were references.

I do wish they would have closed it with "You will be missed." It makes it sound like the bigots are excluding themselves rather than GW excluding them and I think that's important in a message about inclusion. But, still, overall I think it was a good message.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
If warhammer was smart, they would dropped the last line. I don't play war hammer and the last line sound like they want to start a fight.
And if Warhammer was clever, there would have been a sort-of-in-universe announcement along the lines of "The Emperor commands the allegiance of all Mankind, not merely a portion thereof. Coming soon to a shop near you, the pieces to make your force world-wide." This to announce new mini lines for whatever people-groups they do not have now.
 

Retreater

Legend
And if Warhammer was clever, there would have been a sort-of-in-universe announcement along the lines of "The Emperor commands the allegiance of all Mankind, not merely a portion thereof. Coming soon to a shop near you, the pieces to make your force world-wide." This to announce new mini lines for whatever people-groups they do not have now.
Yes! Like if they put it in the rules where you get extra Command Points if you are inclusive and treat people with respect, those players would jump all over the chance for a tactical edge.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
Yes! Like if they put it in the rules where you get extra Command Points if you are inclusive and treat people with respect, those players would jump all over the chance for a tactical edge.
Not to pee in your cornflakes, but this sounds a lot like the Sportsmanship scoring they added to the tournament scene to try and mitigate rampant asshattery. All it did is encourage a certain sort of top player to game the system, max out scores, or blackmail opponents with the threat of low scores. Those doodes will find a way to make anything unpalatable.
 


jasper

Rotten DM
....

(I mean, I get annoyed at English people portrayed in American media as weak and ineffectual fops, but obviously that’s hardly the same thing, not remotely comparable, and we’re not discriminated against).
.....
Hey you 50+ years and 14 different Dr. Whos , who make up for the fops. And you generally are the best villains in American Media too.
 


ruemere

Adventurer
Popper was writing in 1945. The world has learned a great deal more about the psychological harm done by abusive speech since then.
For certain values of "the world". I am ashamed to admit that I live in a country where the president (who apparently won the election vote again) is incapable of acknowledging basic human rights for gay people.
 
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I gave up on the War Hammer setting long ago. They can't seem to come up with new material to save their lives. Death on the Reik was a weak scenario when it was first released, yet they constantly re-release it.

What a publisher or online pundit thinks has no impact on whom I allow at my table, so why is the subject even brought up?

Focus on the hobby.
 

MGibster

Legend
Focus on the hobby.

The "hobby" they're focused on is their table top miniature game. I'm with you, it's not like GW's opinion has any bearing on who is invited to my table. But there are rather popular Youtube commenters who specialize in Warhammer lore/gaming who say some pretty terrible things about women or minority representation in the game. I think GW just wanted to separate itself from those kind of attitudes.
 


The "hobby" they're focused on is their table top miniature game. I'm with you, it's not like GW's opinion has any bearing on who is invited to my table. But there are rather popular Youtube commenters who specialize in Warhammer lore/gaming who say some pretty terrible things about women or minority representation in the game. I think GW just wanted to separate itself from those kind of attitudes.

If they're popular, what's the problem?

If they're not popular, there's no problem.

I get tired of this holier than thou, censorship bent that is so popular these days. It assumes that the average person is too stupid to understand BS when he or she hears it.

Have some faith in people. Let them make their own choices.

Given GW's propensity to rip off its own fan base by constantly churning out new rules and new figs, they're not exactly holding the moral high ground anyway. :devil:
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
If they're popular, what's the problem?

Because it makes racism and misogyny look popular among the fans of the game when people go to look it up.

It assumes that the average person is too stupid to understand BS when he or she hears it.

If a lot of them understand it's racist/sexist BS and still like it... isn't that worse?

Let them make their own choices.

They're choosing to embrace racism and sexism, and the game company is making a choice. It's telling them to shove off.

Given GW's propensity to rip off its own fan base by constantly churning out new rules and new figs, they're not exactly holding the moral high ground anyway.

I imagine there are lots of links on how capitalism is built on racism and misogyny of varying quality. That seems a bit off topic here though :)
 

If they're popular, what's the problem?

If they're not popular, there's no problem.

If they are popular and they are associated with your brand they are very possibly turning people away by associating your brand with obnoxious behaviour.

One of the ones they appear to particularly want rid of is the youtuber formerly known as Arch Warhammer. I say formerly because WotC slapped a trademark infringement on his Youtube channel because when your business is making apparently badly researched Warhammer lore videos and you call yourself [Noun] Warhammer it is very easy to mistake you for an official source from the company with offical Warhammer stores and whose fan community is called the Warhammer Community.
 

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