Breaking the stereotype of the chaste paladin

[Lord Pendragon]

Who says its faithless? If both of them know what they're getting into, then it's not necessarily faithless.

It is faithless. Just because it's an agreed-upon faithlessness doesn't make it any less so. The paladin will not be faithful to that woman, nor will the woman be faithful to him. There may not be harm in it, but that's not the point.

Again, this is projecting either our own culture, or at least, historical Western culture into a fantasy realm, where it may --or may not-- belong. It's also projecting your own ideas of what a paladin is which is not supported by the rulebook, or any setting of which I know.

As far as I know, this thread has nothing to do with rules support or setting support. It's here in General Discussion, not Rules. As such, I largely agree with what Celtavian posted.

Yes, those views, and my agreement with them, are founded on the Western understanding of an archtype based on a Western, Christian even, medieval concept. The Holy Knight. Saint George, Galahad, etc. etc. That doesn't invalidate such views in the slightest. Indeed, since that was AFAIK the archtype the paladin was based on, it could even be argued that it's the only valid view. (Though I won't argue that. )

For me, Celtavian hit the nail on the head.

 

[Gez]

Poor guy better hope he hasn't taken a Vow of Poverty or his Paladining days may be over.

On the other hand, how do you think they can keep their Vow of Poverty, with all the mad phat lewt they get from slaying dragons and rescuing princesses?

I will say that, historically, one of the reasons that Catholic priests aren't allowed to marry and have kids is this: it kept positions in the church from becoming an inherited thing like positions in the nobility. By bringing in new people from outside the church, the church kept its clergy "fresh" and ensured that (theoretically) new clergy would be chosen based on merit and ability, rather than just because their father was a member of the clergy. In that way, it was one of the few things in the Medieval world which was open to everybody (if you were male, that is).

Actually, that's false. The real reason was to one-up the Orthodox priests. IIRC, Paul said something to the effect that it's nifty-keen to stay celibate, but that not everybody have the needed resolve for that. But it doesn't matter because it was also nifty-keen to be married, as long as you stayed faithful. ("Be the man of only one wife" or something like that.) So Orthodox priests are allowed to marry, as were Catholic priests. Until the Catholics decided to tell the Orthodox "we're purer and more resolverish than you, ah!" and forbad their priests to marry.

 

[Turanil]

... I saw nothing in the rules requiring chastity from a paladin – male or female – and I have been playing since early 1E days.

Does anybody agree or disagree with me?

Something must be made clear: celibacy is different from chastity. Paladins are not required to be either.There is no reason they should be; to begin with, paladins aren't priests, then there are priests who can marry and have children.

My idea of it, is that paladins are responsible, and care for others. This is the main point. As such, a paladin will not risk putting a girl pregnant (or even just "break her heart"), then leave to never come back. However, he could make love with an adventurer companion if he knows there won't be bad consequences. Similarly, a paladin could marry and have children, but only if he honestly think he will be able to take care of them, not be called on duty and die on a distant battlefield. So, for the latter reason very few paladins will marry, and few will also have love / sex affairs.

Henceforth there is nothing wrong with a paladin having sex and getting children, as long as it is made with love, and everything is done to prevent any suffering that could result from it.

 

[johnsemlak]

So Orthodox priests are allowed to marry, as were Catholic priests. Until the Catholics decided to tell the Orthodox "we're purer and more resolverish than you, ah!" and forbad their priests to marry.

Hmm, interesting. Until when where Catholic priests allowed to marry?

And Gez beat me to it; Orthodox priests can marry, as I would imagine the priests of many of other branches of Christianity.

 

[Turanil]

Many of the paladins in the world I'm playing in right now are members of an order that heavily emphasises sex and openness with the body...

It's refreshing to hear someone who doesn't seem to be awash with bigot stereotypes. Phewwww...

 

[Bagpuss]

I played a polygamist paladin once. Several wives and children all of which he left behind to take his religion to the farest corners of the world. Obviously being thousands of miles away they didn't come into play much.

He also had no problem killing helpless prisoners if their crimes warranted it. Since in he came from a theocracy and was in commune with his god and thus effectively a judge and one of the highest laws in the land.

 

[Blue]

I think the "chaste knight" has a lot of real world historical, legendary and religious overtones. The Knights of the Round Table, among the most common role-models for paladins, were seemed chaste.

However, much of this goes back to real-world religions. The religion in whatever world you are in may or may not have traditions of celebacy for their paladins and clerics, and may be something to talk to the DM about.

Personally, I've seen caste paladins. I've also run a swashbuckling paladin who had a number of suitors (and lead to marriage) and seen an in-game romance between two PC paladins that lead to marriage.

What I haven't seen it many wanton sow-their-wild-oats paladins, but that to me is more an aspect fo their lawfulness then anything else.

It's amusing how often paladins are expected to be chaste but without a corresponding tradition for the clergy of the same religion. That's a DM who needs to examine exactly what they want.

Cheers,
=Blue

 

[Turanil]

It is possible that a Paladin could follow a fertility god who's sacraments include taking the virginity of all the young maidens so that the blessing of the diety be upon them and any resulting children (who are raised by their maternal families and consider blessed). I know of a number of legends which tell of visaiting dieties fathering children (who went on to become kings) this could be the same thing but more formalised in a fantasy world where the diety really does manifest in the virile member of its paladin!

I like this too.

 

[Bagpuss]

It is possible that a Paladin could follow a fertility god who's sacraments include taking the virginity of all the young maidens so that the blessing of the diety be upon them and any resulting children (who are raised by their maternal families and consider blessed).

Actually they don't even need to be raised by their maternal families, they could be just be handed over to the church and raised by the church to become temple guards, priest or paladins. Can you imagine the military strength such a religion could wield?

 

[sword-dancer]

However, could an argument also be made that a truly pious paladin should “be fruitful and multiply”? Do not some real world religions basically encourage child birth to increase the size of their respective flocks? Yes, I know they try to convert non-believers, too.

I consider it a "cultural thing", some cultures `ve strong views about sex and children outside of marriage, others don`t or given a damn.
A child is a child is a child, and theire is no stigma for a unmarried woman with child, mybe he would only inherit from the mothers side and not from his stepfathers side OTOH, his stepfather would be expected to raise him as his own.
Also it would be expected from his father to care for him as good as it is possible for him, even his stepmother wouldn`t be expected to`ve noPoint with that.
Also in this cultures their is family and kin(both sides), if they seen him as part of the family and the society put no Stigma on this who cares.

If their is stigma by this, that is another Thing, then the Pally should be chaste, for the sake of responsibilities.

You have lots of time on your hands, eh?

Any children the Paladin might father would be raised without a father figure. Can't slay evil and come home every night at 5:00 PM.

in some cultures family and Kin raises children, especially when the parents´ve other duties to fulfill.