Breaking the stereotype of the chaste paladin

[WayneLigon]

I was thinking about this the other day. The stereotypical image of a paladin is the chaste Sir Galahad. But, that kind of bothered me, as I saw nothing in the rules requiring chastity from a paladin – male or female – and I have been playing since early 1E days. However, it seems that the DMs I have played with over the years seem to naturally assume this to be the case.

That's because many GM's and players assume the standard kinda-Puritan mindset ususally seen in bad adaptations of Arthurian tales. I've played paladins that were anything but chaste (and frequently chased, with that 17 CHA) and saw no conflict with any code the GM chose to present. I've played a couple where the code the GM provided did require it, and just sort of accepted it. Usually that was one of those 'we want to see if you're really going to obey us when things get inconvenient' laws of the code or a 'I want to make sure you obey me in the little things as well as the big things' decree from the deity/angel the paladin order reveered.

As long as there is no chance (usually through magic or herbalism) of getting some village girl pregnant with a child she can't support or getting some village boy run out of town for 'unnatural acts', and as long as whatever encounters he has are with people that want it in return, I see no conflict and no requirement for chastity.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think when the Protestants broke off (name escapes me this morning pre-coffee), Catholics suddenly decided to become 'more pure' - no more priests marrying, no more gay marriage, and the like.

No.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

That's because many GM's and players assume the standard kinda-Puritan mindset ususally seen in bad adaptations of Arthurian tales.

Galahad and the idea of the chaste knight far predate Puritanism.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

So Orthodox priests are allowed to marry, as were Catholic priests. Until the Catholics decided to tell the Orthodox "we're purer and more resolverish than you, ah!" and forbad their priests to marry.

No. Enforced celibacy in the West predates the Catholic-Orthodox split. Besides which, it is my understanding that Orthodox bishops must be celibate (I don't know when that was first implemented, though).

 

[Harmon]

Four pallys over the years sense 3e have been played or NPCed.

My NPC is a rog/ftr turned pally in her last level, she was a slut until she hear the calling of Heironeous (she was always a follower, just didn't hear the calling) in any case that level was her last because the campaign ended (big bad is dead). She won't return to her ways when the campaign picks up- because I see her having changed in her ways.

Follower of Yondalla rog/pal- not had the opportunity to show his chaste-ness, but I presume that he will not follow the ways of a "good paladin."

NPC in another campaign I play in has a love interest in one of the PCs and he refuses to bow to the needs of the flesh, and seemingly requires it of his love interest (she's a TN rogue). Marriage appears to be the only way that he will be getting any.

The last- not so sure as its played by another player and social stuff seems lacking with that character- no real opportunity for it beyond hte group.

All in all it seems to be what kind of god do you follow- what do you think this god would require?

As for real world chaste-ness, please keep an eye on the news.

 

[Harmon]

No.

Would you care to expand on this?

 

[Vocenoctum]

It is faithless because both of them know what they are getting into. The act of sex to a Paladin (who does not think in a modern sense) would be an act meant for propagation. That is the primary purpose of the act. A man who intends to sleep with a women risks giving that woman a child. A man who has not sworn faith to that woman risks giving her a child he has not sworn to care for and raise, making his child a bastard and his woman a whore. Would a Lawful Good Paladin do that?

It's true they might not think in a Modern Sense, but they also don't think in a Dark Ages sense either. D&D worlds are magic for starters, technological advances are going to take a back seat to magic, but the mindsets evolve at their own paces. A paladin of Sune could very well be a philandering type, so long as his relationships were thought out and truthful. As long as both parties are aware and know what will happen.

Such a relationship does not remove the paladin from responsibilities should there be a problem or child. If there are social consequences of the child then he should be aware of them and it would factor into his decision.

That leads to the question of whether Paladins can divorce if such is lawful and part of the society he's in. Could an elven paladin remarry if his wife died?

Also, it seems a female paladin would have it easier under such a situation you present.

Paladins shouldn't be sex-free, since heriditary knighthoods are more fun than banning them. And if a paladin can't succubus dance, how will he gain levels? Eating wraith corpses gets tedious after a while!

 

[shilsen]

Celtavian, you really should read your post again. The fairly thinly veiled Judeo-Christian Western bias is showing through very strongly. You may think that those cultural mores are inherent in human behavior, but you'd be wrong, and you show that you have little experience with cultural anthropology or history for stating such. Even a casual glance would show that you can come up with all kinds of alternate cultural mores, because people have literally done so over and over again.

There's no problem with that; I'm a Judeo-Christian westerner myself, who personally believes very strongly in chastity (not celibacy!) but I'm not trying to mandate that my fantasy settings and characters match my real-world cultural outlook. In fact, I tend to like that they don't.

I was going to respond to Celtavian's last post and point out the preconceptions he's working with, but then I read yours. Thanks

 

[Umbran]

Yes, and in many European cultures, children were raised by uncles, or godfathers, or all kinds of other arrangements.

Yes, but I see a minor issue with that - it is an example of the Paladin giving up responsibility for his own actions. That's his child, and his responsibility. If there's one thing paladins are supposed to do is act responsibly and not hurt innocents, right? Should he be allowed to go away and just hope that someone else is going to take care of it?

I'd think not. Rather, I'd imagine that he'd really have to make darned sure that any child was going to be as well cared for as possible. If this is within a marriage, it's not too hard. As I understand it the traditional role of the godfather and godmother was exactly that - taking care of the child if you passed on. Make sure the godparents are solid, make sure there's funding, and you are golden. But a travelling, philandering paladin is goign to risk leaving behind babies who may not be well cared for.

Does the name Modred mean anything to folks here? He's what happens when paladins don't make sure their kids are cared for properly

Even if they are well cared for, you have the risk from the evil doers that the paladin fights. Have a kid, dont watch over him closely, and Dr. Evil comes along and nabs the kid to use as leverage. What's the paladin to do then?

Not that this means paladins can't do the thing. Just that they ought to be thinking long and hard about it before making babies, fertility deity or no.

 

[sword-dancer]

I'd think not. Rather, I'd imagine that he'd really have to make darned sure that any child was going to be as well cared for as possible. .

I thought my post should`ve covered that one.

Even if they are well cared for, you have the risk from the evil doers that the paladin fights. Have a kid, dont watch over him closely, and Dr. Evil comes along and nabs the kid to use as leverage. What's the paladin to do then?

Wrong Question!
What is EVERY Paladin and their churches in these area at least going to do then, who hadn`t really most pressuring Matters on Hand?
Dr Evil has become Target Nr 1!
There is NO rathole on the world you and ANY of your Henchman could hope to escape, hide or whatsoever!