Breaking the stereotype of the chaste paladin

fusangite said:
If I were GMing a powerful paladin, I would probably require that the character begin taking levels in a new class like Fighter or Cleric if he wanted to do something like this. It would not necessarily entail an abandonment of his former religious or political ideals, however; it would simply change how they were put into practice.

I recall 1E, and I think paladins were required to tithe 20% of their earnings to their church. Perhaps this goes towards taking care of the paladin's children?

Again, in some cultures, if the parents directly take care of the baby, they are not doing right by the baby in the long term... the parents are more likely in the primes of their lives and can therefore plow a bit more of the field as a farmer or earn a few extra coppers as a tailor or whatnot when they are in their 20s and 30s. (In modern times, this translates into the best time to advance your career...) The grandparents, being older, may not be able to toil 16 hours a day on the farm like they used to, so taking care of baby is the best way they can contribute. The parents can go out & spend their 16 hours a day on the farm and be secure in their knowledge that their baby is in safe hands, while the grandparents know that their grandchild may do a little bit better than them because they are allowing the parents time to plant a few more crops, earn a few more coppers, hunt down that pack of ghouls terrorizing the neighboring town or whatnot.
 

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NewJeffCTHome said:
I recall 1E, and I think paladins were required to tithe 20% of their earnings to their church. Perhaps this goes towards taking care of the paladin's children?

No. The money is specifically directed to the paladin's church.

Again, in some cultures, if the parents directly take care of the baby, they are not doing right by the baby in the long term...

I am aware of these cultures. They tend to be cultures that have retained the vestiges of a clan system with extended families but I don't see how this is relevant to what I am saying. I am not making a statement about whether a paladin has the resources to have his children taken care of; indeed, you'll notice that in my post I suggest how a paladin who did end up with children would have them cared-for.

Whether a paladin has the resources to care for children is irrelevant. The question is: does the archetypal chivalric holy warrior have licit kids? And I think the answer is pretty clearly "no." The ideals on which this class is based are antithetical to family formation.

the parents are more likely in the primes of their lives and can therefore plow a bit more of the field as a farmer or earn a few extra coppers as a tailor or whatnot when they are in their 20s and 30s. (In modern times, this translates into the best time to advance your career...) The grandparents, being older, may not be able to toil 16 hours a day on the farm like they used to, so taking care of baby is the best way they can contribute. The parents can go out & spend their 16 hours a day on the farm and be secure in their knowledge that their baby is in safe hands, while the grandparents know that their grandchild may do a little bit better than them because they are allowing the parents time to plant a few more crops, earn a few more coppers, hunt down that pack of ghouls terrorizing the neighboring town or whatnot.

I don't really picture a successful paladin as an integrated part of peasant society. Even if their origins are humble, and I think you'll find that most of these figures have aristocratic origins even if juxtaposed with rustic beginnings, becoming paladins effectively makes them part of courtly society. So while technically true, I don't think the arguments you make are really engaging what I was talking about.
 

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Joshua Dyal said:
Celtavian, you really should read your post again. The fairly thinly veiled Judeo-Christian Western bias is showing through very strongly. You may think that those cultural mores are inherent in human behavior, but you'd be wrong, and you show that you have little experience with cultural anthropology or history for stating such. Even a casual glance would show that you can come up with all kinds of alternate cultural mores, because people have literally done so over and over again.

I read it. I know that many Eastern cultures do the same. It is not just Judeo-Christian. You are wrong. If you want to start bringing tribal cultures into this, then I will argue that they don't even possess Paladins.

If you want to discuss things like Roman culture, I can prove that they held virginity in the highest esteem. If you want to discuss Eastern culture, there are many relgions that hold chastity/celibacy as necessary for purity of the body. The argument can go on and on.

Ultimately, the Lawful component when combined with the Good component will make a philandering Paladin suspect in his faith.




There's no problem with that; I'm a Judeo-Christian westerner myself, who personally believes very strongly in chastity (not celibacy!) but I'm not trying to mandate that my fantasy settings and characters match my real-world cultural outlook. In fact, I tend to like that they don't.

I'm not. One of the reasons why I stated what I did. Hindu, Muslim, several of the Eastern philosophies such as Daoism and Confucianism, and several offshoots religions view casual sexual intercourse as detrimental to the spiritual well-being of the individuals for a variety of reasons. The more you search past cultures, you will find the strong trend of pushing marriage upon men and women.

There are obvious examples of legal philandering in just about every culture. Such behavior was hardly held up as the ideal, and often indulged by the wealthy classes over the less wealthy whom they treated almost like slaves.

If you would like to cite specific examples of what you are talking about culturally, I am almost assured that you will fail to find a culture that would have Paladins or where sexual philandering wasn't based on class and wealth. I would love to see this list.
 
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I'll be repeating myself.

If you want to break the "chaste paladin" stereotype, read up Three Hearts and Three Lions. This book was the seminal inspiration for the D&D paladin (down to the special stallion and the cure disease ability), and the paladin here wasn't especially under a vow of chastity... He wasn't womanizing or promiscuous either, though.

This passage illustrates it best:

The real trouble was her own attitude toward him. Damn it, he did not want to compromise himself with her. A romp in the hay with someone like Meriven or Morgan was one thing. Alianora was something else. An affair with her wouldn’t be good for either party, when he meant to leave this world the first chance he got. But she made it hard for him to remain a gentleman. She was so shyly and pathetically hoping for an affair.​

(Alianora, by the way, was the prototype of the Swanmay.)

There. The first D&D Paladin (who met the first D&D Gnome, the first D&D Swanmay, and the first D&D Troll) had no problems at all indulging in casual sex, like he did during the party at the elven castle.

However, he cares about feeling. That Meriven gal was a fickle elven lass, only interested in casual sex as well, so not a problem. Alianora, though, is in love -- and as our paladin do not want to stay in this world but to come back to the one he calls home, he doesn't want to break the girl's heart when he'll leave.
 

Cithindril said:
I was right there with you until this last parting shot...is it possible to have a discussion on this topic without the religious attacks? :mad:

Sorry you're upset here but I was not attacking your religious doctrine. I was simply pointing out an historical reality. I used to attend a Roman Catholic traditionalist weekly discussion group run by two priests ordained to perform services in Latin in the Tridentine rite. These men were deeply conservative individuals who were profoundly committed to opposing abortion, homosexuality and birth control.

But when we were discussing the Episcopalians' consecration of an openly gay bishop, both priests conceded that this man was, by no means, the first openly gay individual who had been consecrated to an episcopal see. Indeed, they agreed that, in the past, their church had probably consecrated more such bishops than have any Protestant churches. These individuals could easily disentangle their ideals, goals and theology from the sweep of the 1900+ year history of the Christian church.

I have a deep respect for your Roman Catholic beliefs and theological position. I am sorry that your interpretation of my post led you to construe otherwise.
 

Gez said:
I'll be repeating myself.

If you want to break the "chaste paladin" stereotype, read up Three Hearts and Three Lions. This book was the seminal inspiration for the D&D paladin (down to the special stallion and the cure disease ability), and the paladin here wasn't especially under a vow of chastity... He wasn't womanizing or promiscuous either, though.

Roland and Veillantif are the inspiration for the D&D paladin's special mount, and Galahad healing the "Maimed King" Pellam is the inspiration for the remove disease ability (at least by my reckoning).
 

fusangite said:
Sorry you're upset here but I was not attacking your religious doctrine. I was simply pointing out an historical reality. I used to attend a Roman Catholic traditionalist weekly discussion group run by two priests ordained to perform services in Latin in the Tridentine rite. These men were deeply conservative individuals who were profoundly committed to opposing abortion, homosexuality and birth control.

But when we were discussing the Episcopalians' consecration of an openly gay bishop, both priests conceded that this man was, by no means, the first openly gay individual who had been consecrated to an episcopal see. Indeed, they agreed that, in the past, their church had probably consecrated more such bishops than have any Protestant churches. These individuals could easily disentangle their ideals, goals and theology from the sweep of the 1900+ year history of the Christian church.

I have a deep respect for your Roman Catholic beliefs and theological position. I am sorry that your interpretation of my post led you to construe otherwise.

All true.

Fusangite used to live with me, and the opinions he is citing are genuine.
 

[url=http://www.geocities.com/rgfdfaq/sources.html]Aardy R. DeVarque[/url] said:
According to p. 224 of the 1st edition Dungeon Master's Guide, the following are among the books and authors that were of particular inspiration to Gary Gygax in the creation of D&D. According to Mr. Gygax, de Camp & Pratt, Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, H.P. Lovecraft, and A. Merritt had some of the most direct influences on the direction of the game, and the others in the list had a lesser influence. Since the list was created in part to dispel the belief that D&D was based primarily and almost solely on the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, and shortly after the Tolkien estate had accused TSR of copyright infringement, Tolkien's name was intentionally left off of that short list. Even a cursory reading of de Camp, Howard, Leiber, Vance, Lovecraft, and Merritt admittedly show as great or greater influences on D&D as Tolkien, but Tolkien definitely should have also been mentioned with those.[1] Here is the list presented in the 1st edition Dungeon Master's Guide.

  • Anderson, Poul. Three Hearts and Three Lions; The High Crusade; The Broken Sword
  • Bellairs, John. The Face in the Frost
  • Brackett, Leigh. Entire body of work
  • Brown, Fredric. Entire body of work
  • Burroughs, Edgar Rice. Pellucidar series; Mars series; Venus series
  • Carter, Lin. World's End series
  • de Camp, L. Sprague. Lest Darkness Fall; Fallible Fiend, et al.
  • de Camp, L. Sprague, and Fletcher Pratt. Harold Shea series; Carnelian Cube
  • Derleth, August. Entire body of work
  • Dunsany, Lord. Entire body of work
  • Farmer, Philip Jose. The World of the Tiers series, et al.
  • Fox, Gardner. Kothar series; Kyrik series, et al.
  • Howard, Robert E. Conan series
  • Lanier, Sterling. Hiero's Journey
  • Lieber, Fritz. Fafhrd & Gray Mouser series (a.k.a. Lankhmar series), et al.
  • Lovecraft, H.P. Entire body of work, especially his Cthulhu series
  • Merritt, A. Creep, Shadow, Creep; Moon Pool; Dwellers in the Mirage, et al.
  • Moorcock, Michael. Stormbringer, Stealer of Souls; Hawkmoon series (especially the first three books)
  • Norton, Andre. Entire body of work
  • Offutt, Andrew J., editor. Swords Against Darkness III
  • Pratt, Fletcher. Blue Star, et al.
  • Saberhagen, Fred. Changeling Earth, et al.
  • St. Clair, Margaret. The Shadow People; Sign of the Labrys
  • Tolkien, J.R.R. The Hobbit; Lord of the Rings trilogy
  • Vance, Jack. The Eyes of the Overworld; The Dying Earth, et al.
  • Zelazny, Roger. Jack of Shadows; Amber series, et al.
  • "Countless hundreds of comic books...the long-gone EC ones certainly had their effect. Science fiction, fantasy, and horror movies were a big influence."


Paladin class Based largely on the character of Holger Carlson from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, as well as Anderson's original sources, Charlemagne's paladins in the medieval French chansons de geste ("songs of deeds"), particularly The Song of Roland and Ariosto's Orlando Furioso. The paladin's tie to a special war-horse is also from Three Hearts and Three Lions. ("I do not mean a saint, but a warrior whom God gave more than common gifts and then put under a more than common burden." -- Martinus, in Three Hearts and Three Lions, by Poul Anderson.)

And here's the excerpt of 3H3L where our Paladin met his warsteed:
Poul Anderson said:
No, another sound. He tensed before recognizing the neigh of a horse. That made him feel better. There must be a farm nearby. His legs were steady enough now that he could push through a screen of withes to find the horse.

When he did, he stopped dead. “No,” he said.

The animal was gigantic, a stallion the size of a Percheron but with more graceful build, sleek and black as polished midnight. It was not tethered, though an elaborate fringed pair of reins hung from a headstall chased with silver and arabesques. On its back was a saddle, high in pommel and cantle, also of ornamented leather; a sweeping silken blanket, white with an embroidered black eagle; and a bundle of some kind.

Holger swallowed and approached closer. All right, he thought, so somebody liked to ride around in such style. “Hallo,” he called. “Hallo, is anyone there?”

The horse tossed his flowing mane and whinnied as he neared. A soft nose nuzzled his cheek and the big hoofs stamped as if to be off. Holger patted the animal—he’d never seen a horse so friendly to strangers—and looked closer. Engraved in the silver of the headstall was a word in odd, ancient-looking characters: Papillon.

“Papillon,” he said wonderingly. The horse whinnied again, stamped, and dragged at the bridle he had caught.

“Papillon, is that your name?” Holger stroked him. “French for butterfly, isn’t it? Fancy calling a chap your size Butterfly.”

The package behind the saddle caught his attention, and he stepped over for a look. What the devil? Chain mail!

“Hallo!” he called again. “Is anyone there? Help!”

A magpie gibed at him.

Staring around, Holger saw a long steel-headed shaft leaned against a tree, with a basket hilt near the end. A lance, before God, a regular medieval lance. Excitement thuttered in him. His restless life had made him less painstakingly law-abiding than most of his countrymen, and he didn’t hesitate to untie the bundle and spread it out. He found quite a bit: a byrnie long enough to reach his knees; a conical crimson-plumed helmet, visorless but with a noseguard; a dagger; assorted belts and thongs; the quilted underpadding for armor. Then there were some changes of clothes, consisting of breeches, full-sleeved shirts, tunics, jerkins, cloaks, and so on. Where the cloth was not coarse, gaily dyed linen, it was silk trimmed with fur. Going around to the left side of the horse, he wasn’t surprised to find a sword and shield hung on the breeching. The shield was of conventional heraldic form, about four feet long, and obviously new. When he took the canvas cover off its surface, which was a thin steel overlay on a wooden base, he saw a design of three golden lions alternating with three red hearts on a blue background.

A dim remembrance stirred in him. He stood puzzling for a while. Was this... wait. The Danish coat of arms. No, that had nine hearts. The memory sank down again.

But what in the world? He scratched his head. Had somebody been organizing a pageant, or what? He drew the sword: a great broad-bladed affair, cross-hilted, double-edged, and knife sharp. His engineer’s eye recognized low-carbon steel. Nobody reproduced medieval equipment that accurately, even for a movie, let alone a parade. Yet he remembered museum exhibits. Man in the Middle Ages was a good deal smaller than his present-day descendants. This sword fitted his hand as if designed for that one grasp, and he was big in the twentieth century.

Papillon snorted and reared. Holger whirled around and saw the bear.
 

sword-dancer said:
Wrong Question!
What is EVERY Paladin and their churches in these area at least going to do then, who hadn`t really most pressuring Matters on Hand?
Dr Evil has become Target Nr 1!
There is NO rathole on the world you and ANY of your Henchman could hope to escape, hide or whatsoever!

This is Dr. Evil, and these are paladins. The paladins were already sworn to wipe him off the planet. It isn't like the paladins were going to be willing to let his nasty evil ways pass if he hadn't grabbed the kid. Like now they're "double dog" sworn to kill him or something?

This also assumes that paladins are commonplace enough and set up as a single organized and communicating force. Where I come from, there aren't too many people willing to be paladins. That's part of what makes them special. And being rare, each one is busy with his own fighting of evil, and probably cannot afford to drop what he's doing and ride across the country to help.

And, it isn't as if Dr. Evil hasn't said, "Come alone! If I see or hear of any of your paladin buddies coming, Timmy dies!"
 

NewJeffCT said:
I was thinking about this the other day. The stereotypical image of a paladin is the chaste Sir Galahad. But, that kind of bothered me, as I saw nothing in the rules requiring chastity from a paladin – male or female – and I have been playing since early 1E days. However, it seems that the DMs I have played with over the years seem to naturally assume this to be the case.

However, could an argument also be made that a truly pious paladin should “be fruitful and multiply”? Do not some real world religions basically encourage child birth to increase the size of their respective flocks? Yes, I know they try to convert non-believers, too.

Here's an argument:

It is an accident of history that Catholic priests are celibate. Paul was the only disciple of Christ that promoted celibacy, and he offered it simply as a suggestion to those who would devote themselves to Christ. Peter (the first pope of the Catholic church - if you accept that) was actually married. Somewhere down the line the church decided on celibacy.

The term paladin, of course, refers to Charlemagne's paladins, though our current ideal of the paladin, as you said, seems to stem more from Arthurian legend. Both are steeped in Christian (Catholic) mindset, even if Arthurian legend also adds paganistic ideas. But since any idea of celibacy from either of these groups (the inspiration for the D&D paladin, and I don't think Charlemagne's paldins were celibate anyway) is based on a confused doctrine from the Catholic church, I think it would be reasonable to assume that a D&D paladin would have no issues with intercourse or marriage. I can see an edict against premarital relations and I would imagine a paladin's courtship ritual would be steeped in tradition and rules.

Want an even better argument?

2nd edition Complete Paladin's Handbook had over a page (I believe) on paladin courtship rules and courtly love. Having this information would seem to me to indicate that paladins can "get in on" like the rest of us.
 

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