Breaking the stereotype of the chaste paladin

[Tonguez]

It is faithless because both of them know what they are getting into. The act of sex to a Paladin (who does not think in a modern sense) would be an act meant for propagation. That is the primary purpose of the act.
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1. Paladins are a rare anfd specific group of religious functionaries not just everyman in society (ie they are not held to the same standards as common folk)

2. In Polynesian societies chastity is expected for married spouses however prior to marriage sexual experimentation is allowed (which is why those 18th Century sailors (and Gaugan (sp)) created the myth of the Isles of Paradise)

3. As I stated earlier Areoi were dedicated and disciplined (Lawful) religious functionaries whose sacraments demanded they have wonton sex

4. Sex does not neccesarily result in childbirth. In the Trobiands pregnancy was said to resultswhen a spirit of the ancestors enters the womans womb and grows to become a new child

Anyway the point is learn a bit more about different cultures before making sweeping statements

see Trobiand Islands.

“the fundamental principal that shapes Trobriander’s ideas about matrilineal identity revolves around the belief that conception occurs through women and their ancestral spirits. In this way, each infant born is both physically and socially identified with a particular matrilineage to which its mother and not its father belongs.” (page 56) The Trobrianders believe that when death occurs, the spirit of the dead goes to the island of Tuma and becomes once again youthful, where it again grows old. When it becomes feeble, the spirit baths in seawater and takes on the form of a waiwaia, also known as “infant” or “fetus”. This spirit then enters a woman’s body and creates pregnancy. It chooses to enter the body of a woman of the same matrilineage, and the born child is always named after a previously deceased member of the woman’s family. This shows strong ties in the ancestral connections of the Trobrianders.

 

[fusangite]

While Paladin sexual continence is a whole separate issue, I find myself siding with Umbran here. There are various religious or at least quasi-religious figures who indeed have had children by multiple women for some higher purpose, like Brigham Young or Ibn Saud but none of them fits into the crusader archetype the Paladin is supposed to represent. In 1e, I remember that there were strict limits on Paladins' material acquisitions so as to prevent them from settling down and founding established organizations like what the original poster describes.

If I were GMing a powerful paladin, I would probably require that the character begin taking levels in a new class like Fighter or Cleric if he wanted to do something like this. It would not necessarily entail an abandonment of his former religious or political ideals, however; it would simply change how they were put into practice.

In the one campaign I GMed that contained a paladin, the all paladins were members of a holy order associated with the imperial government; only homosexuals were allowed to join... kind of like the de facto situation with parts of the Catholic church from time to time.

 

[fusangite]

On the subject of paladin sexual continence, a few points:

Just as if we were talking about how monks are played I would be basing my statements on Chinese and Indian-inspired myth traditions, obviously, here I'm sticking pretty much to the Christian and Islamic worlds.

In most stories of paladin-type figures, there is always a moment of temptation where he does, to a greater or lesser degree, lust carnally after a woman. It seems reasonable, then, to assume that paladins sometimes lapse or fall from their high ideal, even if they return to their former chaste existence (after performing the appropriate penance). Given how noble paladins are, and how inevitably fertile the chaste and pure women they fall for are, it seems likely there will be a few bastard children kicking around being raised by relatives or patrons probably without knowing the identity of their real father.

I think a GM has more leeway in looking at same-sex relations by paladins; but even then, I think establishing a household with his sexual partner would not be an option. And in all likelihood, same-sex relations would be approached, at best, in the manner of the US military.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I have difficulty visualizing paladins as anything but chaste and celibate. There devotion to their god is supposed to be absolute while casual sex wont necesarrily put something in a paladins life that superseds or infringes on his devotion, love and marriage would. And casual sex at least would be seen as dangerous territory. I'm sure I can come up with some religions where sex is viewed as an act of devotion to a god, but chances are all of those religions I'd place as chaotic.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

It's refreshing to hear someone who doesn't seem to be awash with bigot stereotypes. Phewwww...

this is pot calling kettle, pot calling kettle.

 

[Turanil]

this is pot calling kettle, pot calling kettle.

And this one:

In a world full of mimics, beholders, modrons, and elven druids siding with shaolin monks, I propose:

1) An order of LG gay paladins. Sex and love is good for body and soul. However, since they don't have time for raising families and are responsible (no women left pregnant here and there), the paladins of this order make love among themselves. So, no risk of problematic outcomes.

2) An order of LE (Unearthed Arcana variant) paladins. They must remain chaste and celibate for the two reasons of suffering in glory of their evil god, and above all because sexual frustration is so good for increasing one's agressiveness and lust for violence.

3) Galahad? Who's that? A halfling cook?

 

[Bagpuss]

I have difficulty visualizing paladins as anything but chaste and celibate. There devotion to their god is supposed to be absolute while casual sex wont necesarrily put something in a paladins life that superseds or infringes on his devotion, love and marriage would.

No, it wouldn't.

Assume you are married and you have a son do you love your wife less? No. If anything you'ld love her more.

If you have a second child does love you have for that first son, have to get divided up with this next child? Of course not.

Now you love your god with all your heart and he blesses you with a wife and children, do you suddenly love your god less? Or at you in fact more devoted to a god that blesses you with such a wonder wife and children?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

No, it wouldn't.

Assume you are married and you have a son do you love your wife less? No. If anything you'ld love her more.

If you have a second child does love you have for that first son, have to get divided up with this next child? Of course not.

Now you love your god with all your heart and he blesses you with a wife and children, do you suddenly love your god less? Or at you in fact more devoted to a god that blesses you with such a wonder wife and children?

sure and what do you do when a situation comes up where the best thing to do for your family is different than what is for your god. With a family you more often than not get to decide what is best for your family overall not just for one or the other, and if you do somehting that is best for the kids but is detrimental to the wife chances are she's with you on this. The same thing can't be said for the love for a family and a god. Your gods goals and needs are completely separate than that of your families.

So yes it would get in the way of your devotion and fairly frequently I suspect. Heck in normal life without crazed cultists bent on world domination which only you can stop your job can interfere with your family and your family can interfere with your job. And last time I checked my job doesn't require total devotion, but then again I don't work for a 80's movie japanese company in a dark future.

 

[Cithindril]

only homosexuals were allowed to join...kind of like the de facto situation with parts of the Catholic church from time to time.

I was right there with you until this last parting shot...is it possible to have a discussion on this topic without the religious attacks?

 

[NewJeffCTHome]

I have difficulty visualizing paladins as anything but chaste and celibate. There devotion to their god is supposed to be absolute while casual sex wont necesarrily put something in a paladins life that superseds or infringes on his devotion, love and marriage would. And casual sex at least would be seen as dangerous territory. I'm sure I can come up with some religions where sex is viewed as an act of devotion to a god, but chances are all of those religions I'd place as chaotic.

Again, when I made my original post, nowhere did I say that the paladin engaged in casual sex or was a philanderer. I specifically mentioned> "My thought was that would not a male paladin be true to his religion by fathering 10 or more children with a devout follower of his own L/G religion?"< That was with a devout follower of his own L/G religion, not innocent farm girls in every village that he comes across.