D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[Oofta]

Indeed. Your antagonists can be whoever you like: orcs, elves, angels, whatever.

The point is you are fighting them because of what they do, not because of who they are.

If they weren't doing evil things when given the option they wouldn't be evil.

 

[Oofta]

Yeah, but if you're the DM, then you would know the answer. I don't care what the players know; I want to know the worldlore.

Because what does that mean, no one has ever encountered a female orc? That could mean anything from "orcs are grown in pods" to "orcs are bamfed into existence by their gods" to "orcs keep their women locked up where nobody can see them" to "orc women look exactly like the men do, and even have a hyena-style pseudophallus" to "all orcs are male, but they reproduce parthenogenetically."

None of which answer the question of, are baby orcs--a phrase that can mean a true infant to one just popped out of the orcpod a moment ago, are evil?

Should I know the answer? Does everything in the world need an explanation until an explanation is needed?

In any case, I do have an answer and yes, orcs are pretty much just hatched from pods/egg sacks practically full grown. They are a race created by evil Jotun that can pass with little notice into Midgard (the prime material). They tend to appear in areas with volcanoes (even dormant ones) if the seed originates from Muspleheim or glaciers and places of intense cold if from Udgard.

Different monsters have different origins. Gnolls come from hyenas that are infected with evil Jotun blood (not all Jotun are evil). Goblins are different, they come from a race of proto-goblins from the Feywild that were forced out long ago; some followed dark gods and became goblins other followed the gods of light and became gnomes. A few exceptional goblins are not evil though rare.

On the other hand I ran campaigns for years in my world without really putting much thought into it. I just never had female or young orcs because "what do you do with baby orcs" has no good answer. I don't do trolley car moral dilemmas. If orcs are only evil because of culture then it's colonialist BS and we should take the babies and reeducate them so they don't grow up to be ignorant savages. If they're just humans that look funny I'm not going to have inherent widespread bias against them in my world and they serve no purpose.

On the other hand, aren't lemure and manes really just "baby" fiends?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

If orcs are only evil because of culture then it's colonialist BS and we should take the babies and reeducate them so they don't grow up to be ignorant savages.

Well .... in fairness, if the goal was to get baby orcs and re-educate them so they don’t grow up to be ignorant savages, you’ll probably have a whole ‘nother kettle of problems to deal with, and you won’t be avoiding the colonialist BS issues either.

 

[Oofta]

Well .... in fairness, if the goal was to get baby orcs and re-educate them so they don’t grow up to be ignorant savages, you’ll probably have a whole ‘nother kettle of problems to deal with, and you won’t be avoiding the colonialist BS issues either.

I consider the "reeducation" of indigenous peoples a blight on our history. It's yet another moral dilemma I'd rather avoid.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I consider the "reeducation" of indigenous peoples a blight on our history. It's yet another moral dilemma I'd rather avoid.

I agree with you on that (does anyone today disagree?).

On the general topic, it’s my opinion that fantasy is a genre with certain tropes, and while you can certainly play it realistically, it isn’t “wrong” to play it with notions of good and evil as well.

 

[Charlaquin]

In one of my favorite settings, Scarred Lands, orcs are titansborn. Meaning they were created by the Titans and not the Gods. Only problem is, so were pretty much everyone else. Humans were created by Titans, for example. Now, since the Titanswar where the gods destroyed/imprisoned the titans, there has been strife between those that followed the gods and those that followed the titans.

However, it's entirely plausible for orcs to follow the gods and humans to be titan cultists. So, it's not really an inherent thing at all. Granted, more orcs worship titans than gods, but, considering the war only ended a century ago, that's probably to be expected - pretty much EVERYONE worshipped/followed the titans before the war.

IOW, even twenty years ago when Sword and Sorcery Press published Scarred Lands, they managed to avoid all this crap by actually embedding the races into the setting instead of relying on half thought out stereotypes.

Also, have you seen the 5e/PF1 updates? Now there’s a third category in addition to the divine races and the titansborn - the redeemed, who mostly fought in the side of the Titans during the war, but embraced the Gods when it became clear the Titans had lost. Orcs, Assatthi, and Sletherin are all redeemed races.

 

[Faolyn]

People copies of the same exact genetic base are not drones.

Think identical twins.

Not if they're all popped out by a evil AI machine, which is what I was responding to initially.

 

[Faolyn]

Should I know the answer? Does everything in the world need an explanation until an explanation is needed?

In a case like this, where it involves declaring an entire species of creatures to be "irredeemably evil"? Yeah, kinda.

If they're just humans that look funny I'm not going to have inherent widespread bias against them in my world and they serve no purpose.

You still seem to be ignoring the third option, which is orcs with culture of their own. What, are all of your cultures for non-orcs exact copies of real-world cultures?

On the other hand, aren't lemure and manes really just "baby" fiends?

...That are made from the damned souls of people who were evil in life. It's not like lemures are "innocent."

 

[Oofta]

In a case like this, where it involves declaring an entire species of creatures to be "irredeemably evil"? Yeah, kinda.

Why? They are a species created to wage never ending, meaningless war. To sow chaos and destruction. They're magically constructed in my world.

You still seem to be ignoring the third option, which is orcs with culture of their own. What, are all of your cultures for non-orcs exact copies of real-world cultures?

Ooh, great idea. So to solve the orc problem, we should round up all the orc kids and send them off to boarding school to teach them to speak and dress "properly"! Fantastic idea that western civilization has foisted on indigenous peoples multiple times.

...That are made from the damned souls of people who were evil in life. It's not like lemures are "innocent."

Are they? Even if they are, so what? Who says orcs even have souls? Just seems like another arbitrary "my fiction says it's okay, your fiction doesn't".

Do what you want in your campaign.

 

[Faolyn]

I consider the "reeducation" of indigenous peoples a blight on our history. It's yet another moral dilemma I'd rather avoid.

Actual real-world indigenous people aren't, and weren't, evil, though.