D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[Urriak Uruk]

Why are evil A.I.s ok but evil organics aren't? Some versions of orcs (Warhammer) are arguably just as prefab as robots are

EDIT:
And what about beings with a collective consciousness (such as Tyranids, to use another warhammer example, or to a lesser extent D&D's modrons)? They should be expected to all think alike (unless cut off from the collective like rogue modrons or that one genestealer cult)

Interestingly enough, Star Wars sometimes uses droids as a proxy for racism. In that, there isn't a ton of animosity between the various races (with some notable exceptions like the Empire being human-first), but there is a ton of animosity against droids. There are even instances of "we don't serve droids here," which is a pretty clear reference to an era of the American South.

Anyway, IMO, having an entirely evil group of humanoids is ok as long as there can't be any similarities drawn to a real-life group of people. If you have gnolls for example that sounds like the dog-hyena-people they are and have essentially no culture apart from "Like to eat people," that's fine.

 

[Bohandas]

Yes. Yes it is. That is racism. At least, if all your goblins sound Japanese, and all your goblins are unequivocably, unredeemably evil. If both are true, this is racist.

You don't have to have your goblins sound like any real-life culture, they can sound like slabbering beasts barely forming words, or like Skeletor screeching, or just talk like cavemen. Making them sound like an existing people is a poor choice if this race is intended as the "Always evil, kill on sight" enemy.

What if they want the language to be coherent? Not everybody is Tolkien.

 

[Charlaquin]

Fixed.

I do love that mini. It’s way more piggy than I usually like my orcs, but god damn is it ever a good pig-headed humanoid design. And the skinny little legs holding up that chonky chungus torso? chef’s kiss

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think he's just trying not to have yet another conversation about whether the sentence "all orcs are evil" is racist.

Sure, I don’t want that either. But I asked if it matters that the bandits are evil or not, I didn’t ask anything about orcs or about racism.

Like, IRL, it doesn’t matter if enemy soldiers in an invasion are Evil. It just matters that they are invading your home. You’re justified in armed response. Period. Evil or good don’t even come into the question of justification.

What if they want the language to be coherent? Not everybody is Tolkien.

Don’t have to be. There are already fictional goblinoids languages to steal some phrasing from.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Good point.

So your argument is one of (a) logic within the setting AND (b) that of a good story.
I'm not so swayed by (b) - plenty of stories have bad guys and good guys.

With (a) are we saying an evil people cannot functionally exist, right?

No, I can't even conceive how you possibly came to that conclusion.

With (a) we are saying that there has to be a logic to them existing, and that discussing that logic is fair game. People keep trying to say that "none of it is real, so it doesn't matter" but that is ridiculous. Not being real isn't an excuse to ignore logic and reasons for things to happen.

Can evil people exist? Yes. Of course they can.

Since they are fictional evil people can we simply dismiss their reasons for being evil as unimportant? No. We can't. Being fictional isn't a blanket protection to do whatever you want.

 

[Chaosmancer]

look can I go down to the pub with the sapient land squid or not that is the question?

I never said they would be identical but that we would have a lot in common as even fruit flies have eyes and a mouth.

Sure, but plants don't. Sea Sponges don't have eyes. Nor do lot of other creatures.

The point is that while we MAY have a lot in common, we may not. Maybe the alien life is a intelligent colony of fungal growths, very different than what we are. It is possible, and until we meet quite a few aliens, we don't know for sure.

 

[Faolyn]

Why are evil A.I.s ok but evil organics aren't? Some versions of orcs (Warhammer) are arguably just as prefab as robots are

EDIT:
And what about beings with a collective consciousness (such as Tyranids, to use another warhammer example, or to a lesser extent D&D's modrons)? They should be expected to all think alike (unless cut off from the collective like rogue modrons or that one genestealer cult)

When I say robot, I mean mindless drone. At least in this particular case.

Since I know very little about Warhammer so I'm not even going to address that.

When it comes to AI, there are two basic types: the ones that can go against (or find loopholes in) their programming, and the ones who can't. If you have the first type of AI, you have an AI with free will, or at least something that passes for it, which means that, like with (D&D) orcs and humans, its a person and thus should be judged by its actions.

If you have the second type of AI, then you basically have a less-mindless drone.

Members of a hive follow the same logic as AIs, for the most part. The only difference is that instead of a "programmer," you have a "queen."

If it's possible to transform a limited AI into a full AI, thus giving it free will and a personality, then there's a cost analysis of how difficult it is to do this versus the danger the AI is causing.

In case it's not obvious, these are my beliefs regarding NPCs in RPGs--I am not talking about anything or anybody in real life here.

My personal rule of thumb when it comes to these things is, if it's a K-strategy species, it can't be Always Evil. They might have evil cultures or movements, but they are not otherwise inherently evil. Otherwise, I have to look at the creature's ecology and decide. Orcs seem like they'd be K-strategists. Yes, I know I'm bringing real-world biology into a fantasy game, but it's how I do it.

 

[Oofta]

This doesn’t seem to engage with the content of the post you’re quoting in any way I can see.

What point are you going for, here?

I was responding to

Does it matter if any of them are Evil? Erase cosmic Evil from the game, and the bandits are still killing townsfolk and stealing their stuff.

If they aren’t committing murder in order to more easily commit theft, the PCs probably aren’t hunting them down.

Edit: The thing is, for me, it doesn’t make it okay to kill someone “because they’re evil”. It’s okay to kill someone or not based on their actions now and in the immediate future.

Just saying that the assumption that because all orcs encountered are evil that it's okay to "hunt" them falls flat in my campaign.

First, I don't use XP so there would be no point. Second, hunting sentient creatures, even evil ones for sport is not something I would support in my game.

I just get tired of the leap from "certain monsters are evil in my campaign" to "as a DM I support genocide or killing them for funzies."

 

[Faolyn]

I just get tired of the leap from "certain monsters are evil in my campaign" to "as a DM I support genocide or killing them for funzies."

OK, then: why are all orcs (or whichever Always Evil race you want to talk about) always evil in your setting?

 

[Bohandas]

OK, then: why are all orcs (or whichever Always Evil race you want to talk about) always evil in your setting?

Do you mean what leads to the evil karma or what leads to the things that lead to the evil karma?