D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

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BookTenTiger

He / Him
Capacity, certainly - it is hard to settle down into towns and cities without land that can support large scale agriculture but knowledge? That was never the case. Building shelters and growing crops is no beyond the intellectual capacity of any group. The reason historically the steppe regions produced so many nomadic groups is because it was unsuitable for most agriculture apart from horse-rearing and sheep herding - as contrasted to the fertile river valleys where sedentary civilisation began. Nomadic lifestyle though, cannot manufacture refined goods, especially luxuries, which is what sets up most sedentary/civilised clashes, since generally nomadic military power was superior. Agriculture requires a lot of labour to work, however, whereas the sheep herds could be left to the women, children and elderly while the men in their prime raided their sedentary neighbours.
Nomadic life was better on the lower back, too. We haven't been farming for long enough in sedentary communities to adapt to all the bending, carrying, and heavy labor yet.

So to be accurate to history, any characters from sedentary communities should have 1 Level of Exhaustion from lower back pain at the start of the campaign.
 

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Sithlord

Adventurer
"Worked to better themselves" is not the same as "inherently better."

So yes, "inherently better" and "inherently evil" are both very racist takes.
Okay. I know what you are saying now. I don’t believe it is racist to have an inherently evil fictional fantasy race in a fantasy world. Carry on. Nothing further for me and you to discuss on this topic. I kind of thought I was clear on that from the beginning.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
That's just not true. Nomadic people didn't stay for long periods in one spot, so the wouldn't have mining for iron, gold and other metals. For those they would need to trade or take. Along with that, they wouldn't have other things that exist in a settled area and would need those as well. It's not laziness or a lack of creativity. It's simply a different lifestyle.
Maybe look back at what you actually said that I replied to.
You implied laziness and lack of creativity, not me, with your ridiculous “why make the thing you want when you can just take what you envy” comment. Don’t try to reverse it now.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Capacity, certainly - it is hard to settle down into towns and cities without land that can support large scale agriculture but knowledge? That was never the case. Building shelters and growing crops is no beyond the intellectual capacity of any group. The reason historically the steppe regions produced so many nomadic groups is because it was unsuitable for most agriculture apart from horse-rearing and sheep herding - as contrasted to the fertile river valleys where sedentary civilisation began. Nomadic lifestyle though, cannot manufacture refined goods, especially luxuries, which is what sets up most sedentary/civilised clashes, since generally nomadic military power was superior. Agriculture requires a lot of labour to work, however, whereas the sheep herds could be left to the women, children and elderly while the men in their prime raided their sedentary neighbours.
One small note; agricultural labor was done just as much by women as by men, in most of the world. Your post implies that shepherding is easy, and thus could be left to the women, which in turn implies that women are less capable workers, both implications being very, very, false.
 

Wolf72

Explorer
"Tropes, stereotypes, and clichés change all the time. The time of the Always Evil orc or drow is over." -- Say that first, most problems solved

"I guess if you don't want to make cultures for your PC races, then yes, D&D is a game of stereotypes." -- Do as you need, when you need. Alignments and stereotypes are there as tools, tweak them or not when you feel like. Sometimes I get deep, other times not.

"I assume you have accepted the changes the game has made since it was first created. So why are you so against changes being made now?" -- you are absolutely right here. Why? not against them. More accurately I don't feel or see the need for them. My problem is how wide a net has been thrown and the allusion that those who support the old school game are feeding, supported, or the very least not speaking out against racism.

"Since you apparently haven't realized it from the thousand times it's been said already by many people in this thread: We are not talking about your game. We are talking about what WotC is doing." Well, we are talking about 'my' game, 'your' game, what have you. If you haven't realized from a thousand times before, said by many people in this thread WotC isn't being racist. There is context to everything, apply that context to help you separate real from fantasy.

"What did I accuse them of? If it's the bit where I talked about Volo's, that's a direct quote from the book. From "Roleplaying an Orc": " -- pick one. Either chose what the feeling of the thread is, or what only have ever posted. Several comments have put forth by different posters have made claims. You had one direct quote. My apologies, You have not directly accused anyone that, just alluded that I support bigotry based on game based on complete and utter fantasy.

"For some reason, when we say that WotC is starting to move away from using bigoted language, people like you get upset and offended. Why is that?" Here again, you want to claim or allude to something not as true as you'd like it to be. When you call out "Why is that" it really comes off as snarky and only being used to get some sort of dig in there. I've explained my reasons too. I grew up with Orcs are Evil, I've read countless books where Orcs are Evil, watched some very long movies where Orcs are Evil. Why is that racist or bigoted? If I refuse to let the scorpion ride on my back to cross the river, is that bigoted? If the Inn/barkeep is a crabby Half-orc who dislikes elves as much as elves dislike him and continually calls them Faeries (they're grey elves) am I supporting bigotry or having a developed NPC (even if it is a simple trope). They gave us starting points, work from there, I see that claim of bigoted language as not as strong as you seem to feel it is.


"And if they're bad guys, then they need a motivation beyond "they're an orc, goblin, or drow." -- Why? the publisher puts out the general ideas, the users expand, refine, redefine as they see fit. They say Orcs are Evil, then you ask yourself why, then do your magic and own it. Or maybe at this time you don't see the need to expand on them, it simply 'is'.

"You are the one who has a problem with that." What you call problem, I call role-playing opportunity. My first character when the UA came out? A good drow ranger. Had to overcome a lot reactions in towns. I didn't feel like TSR was trying undermine my life or teach me how to treat other people. I seem to recall that it was mentioned that the Drow are a wholly evil race and that a PC drow needs to come up a reason for not being 'normal' -- it's what we did, we did not see that wholly evil phrase as justification for never happening, it meant we were challenged to change it through our game and experience.

"people like you" -- you see here, that's bigoted language.

Cool DLA info, thanks for the refresher. My copy of Dragons of Autumn Twilight came out 37 years ago (the next two shortly after), and while it may not have all the exact information on Tanis I remember, it is probably my strongest influence. Also my original (and near dilapidated ) DLA p63: Many half-elves were engendered during this period of rapine and violence. It happened, it did not normalize it nor nor tacitly support it in my opinion.

... what I'm trying to get at is, You think I'm offended by changing the fluff of the game. I'm not. There has been very strongly claims or fears of racism permeating out of the game. When some one says that TSR/WotC are using language that racists have used, it doesn't mean they are supporting that nor do they approve the message. The context matters, I can separate my D&D, Shadowrun, Battletech, from my real life and maintain my grip of right versus wrong. Volo was harsh and said something harsh ... actually kind of Lawful evil-ish imo. I know a bit here and there about the character, is he normally that way? If so, something to consider if your PCs encounter him.
 
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One small note; agricultural labor was done just as much by women as by men, in most of the world. Your post implies that shepherding is easy, and thus could be left to the women, which in turn implies that women are less capable workers, both implications being very, very, false.

That's not what I meant. What I am trying to get across that nomadic military strength was derived from being able to put your entire able-bodied male population into the field. Sedentary societies required their men and women at home producing food to survive. That's what wars in pre-modern Europe were short and with small numbers of troops. Extended wars led to famines and problems with the harvest. There's a lot of strange ideas that medieval europe was having huge battles constantly. No then, as always, wars were a waste of resources.

On the other hand, herds could be managed without the entire population for extended periods of time and could also be brought with the army as it moved. Easy? No. Less labour intensive? Yes. Until the modern era there was no separation of "men's work" and "women's work", everyone worked because they had to.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
That's not what I meant. What I am trying to get across that nomadic military strength was derived from being able to put your entire able-bodied male population into the field. Sedentary societies required their men and women at home producing food to survive. That's what wars in pre-modern Europe were short and with small numbers of troops. Extended wars led to famines and problems with the harvest. There's a lot of strange ideas that medieval europe was having huge battles constantly. No then, as always, wars were a waste of resources.

On the other hand, herds could be managed without the entire population for extended periods of time and could also be brought with the army as it moved. Easy? No. Less labour intensive? Yes. Until the modern era there was no separation of "men's work" and "women's work", everyone worked because they had to.
Apologies, I should have clarified that I didn’t think you meant to imply those things, I was just seeking to make those points clear.
 

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