Bringing back weapon speed!

[BelgarathTAO]

Weight:
A weapons weight is actually what should ultimately determine weapons speed, not size. A 6' Bo staff is a very quick weapon that in DnD "got the shaft" in game terms. TWF IMHO, should not apply to a Staff, and all other double weapons should be removed completely. Take a staff made of wood and a identical sized staff made from made from metal (Such as a pipe) and try swinging them around. The two weapons are identical in size, yet the wood staff is quick, and the metal is slow.

I did orignally look at weight, but that number by itself varies by too much to be used, and I was really trying to avoid some formula to convert weapon weight into speed factor, and I also didn't want to come up with a new stat for every weapon like 2nd edition.

Strength:
A characters strength then alters the relative weight of the weapon. Different fighting styles with the same weapon could change the weapon speed. Doubling up on a longsword would give you a faster reaction with the weapon than fighting with the same sword and a shield. Fighting with a staff, using both ends to attack can be faster than swinging the same staff like a club.

I think STR is already represented by its bonus to hit and damage.

There's even your dexterity which gives you a higher degree of control as your wepon gets lighter. There's just too much "weapon math" to be done to make the game fast and enjoyable. Added realism just slows down game play (for the most part)..

Again, this is already a factor in your init, so it is already covered. The only missing element that I was trying to fit in was weapon size.

I do agree that we will never get to truely simulate a combat experience, but I do think this will bring us one step closer than the existing rules do.

Belgarath the Ancient One

 

[cerberus2112]

Re: Re: Max Dex bonus to initiative idea

That's a great idea, kind of an extension of the AC max dex rules, though I think you're numbers are a bit off, should just make it relational. Also maybe instead of max dex bonus just give a dex bonus/penalty.

I actually chose the numbers on the basis that I thought a Halberd or other unwieldy large weapon would severely hamper someone, while a dager probably would not be any slower for someone with a 20 Dex than their own fist would be. I'm against granting initiative bonuses for small weapons, because I don't think unarmed attacks should grant any bonus so why a dagger (for that matter, why should you get to go before a spellcaster just because you've got something in your hand?) For Large weapons, the advantage of reach is already accounted for, so penalties on most reach weapons to make them reactive seems fair and appropriate (and includes the idea that you must ready that longspear before its useful). I didn't want to make it a straight penalty, either, because that would unbalance the game in favor of spellcasters too much; that's when it came to me to use a similar mechanic to Max dex to AC from armor.

 

[Ravellion]

Seeing as BelgarathTAO is a new user here, I wonder whether he is familiar with the piece Sean K. Reynolds (ex WotC game designer) wrote on weapon speeds, which can be found here.

I agree with him... especially as one of my favourite PCs in 2e was a Dwarf with a two handed axe. #@$&! +9 initiative!

Rav

 

[Fenris]

I too miss weapon speeds

In relation to what Judas brought up; Here is the system that I use. It was refined on this board a while ago whith some great info. It uses weight and str but is fairly simple.

Weapon Speeds: I will use a mechanic similar to the "Swimming" penalty... -1 to initiative for every 5 lbs of weapon. This can be counteracted by the character's Str bonus (Str bonus x 1.5 for two-handed). The Str modifier can only negate the weight penalty, though, not give a bonus. So, a 12 Str character wielding a 10 lb. bastard sword single handed, would have a -1 penalty (-2+1) to initiative. A 14 Str character with a 20 lb. greatsword would also have a -1 penalty to initiative (-4+3)... The Str 12 char with the greatsword would have -3 (-4+1, since you round fractions down)... A Str 16 char with a greatsword would have +0 (-4+4)... A Str 18 char would also have +0 (-4+6, but you do not get a bonus). Anyone with Str 11 or less would have the full -4 penalty. And remember, initiative would still be modified by Dex. So a Strong, clumsy character with a heavy weapon could still have a penalty, and a weak, dextrous character with a heavy weapon could still have a bonus.

 

[ThomasBJJ]

I think everyone should go check out the "D20" Everquest Players Handbook for what I believe is the Best Weapon Speed rules I've seen.

Here's the basics...

In normal D&D, a standard fighter with a standard weapon attacks at his normal base attack bonus (plus modifiers). When he gets to Base attack bonus of +6, he gets an additional iterative attack at +1... etc.

In Everquest D20, there are 6 classes of "Weapon Delay"

--Weapon Delay 2: (Special)
Examples: No weapon is this quick, this catagory accounts for magic items or spells that would speed up an already "Very Quick" delay weapon.
Progression:
+0
+1
+2
+3/+1
+4/+2
+5/+3/+1
+6/+4/+2
+7/+5/+3/+1
etc...

--Weapon Delay 3 : (Very Quick)
Examples: A Monk attacing unarmed or with a special monk weapon.
Progression:
+0
+1
+2
+3
+4/+1
+5/+2
+6/+3
+7+4/+1
etc...

--Weapon Delay 4: (Quick)
Examples: Unarmed Strike, Dagger, Spiked Gauntlet, Nunchaku, Shuriken, Whip,
Progression:
+0
+1
+2
+3
+4
+5/+1
+6/+2
+7/+3
+8/+4
+9/+5/+1
etc..

--Weapon Delay 5: (Standard)
Examples: Quarterstaff, Battleaxe, Longsword, Shortbow, Longbow
Progression:
+0
+1
+2
+3
+4
+5
+6/+1
etc... same progression as D&D PHB

--Weapon Delay 6: (Slow)
Examples: Glaive, Greatsword, Halberd
Progression:
+0
+1
+2
+3
+4
+5
+6
+7/+1
+8/+2
+9/+3
+10/+4
+11/+5
+12/+6
+13/+7/+1
etc...

--Weapon Delay 7: (Very Slow)
Examples: No weapon is considered Very Slow, someone under the effect of a Slow spell might fall under this category, however.
Progression:
+0
+1
+2
+3
+4
+5
+6
+7
+8/+1
etc...
+15/+8/+1
etc...

 

[lord_banus]

I think most of the issues with weapon speed are already handled with things like size penalties for opponents and the proficiencies system. The harder to swing weapons require exotic weapons or Martial weapons.

Another thing that always gets forgotten is that a round does not constitute a single swing. Its all about getting into position and finding the sweet spot which is why proficiency is more important than speed. It doesn't matter how quick you are with a dagger versus a greatsword, a proficient user will not be letting in the attack.

Weapon speed would only be an issue for surprise rounds and then could be mostly handled by quickdraw feat.

 

[woodelf]

The system I imagine would be based on the size of the weapon that is readied. Example: a medium size weapon does not modify your initiative. For each step larger, you get –2, and for each step smaller, you get +2.

I see two problems with this, but I think that they can be worked out:

Spells: What is their initiative? Does it add or subtract? My first thought would be no change.

init for spellcasting: penalty equal to spell level. That's simple, and seems balanced--it's pretty close to the range of casting times for spells in AD&D2.

Weapons: if you have the patience, i'd actually add speed to the weapon stats. A rapier and a handax are both M, but the former is specifically designed to be fast. As for switching weapons: yup, new init number.

Implications: i'd actually recommend going a step further, and basing # of attacks on speed of attakcs (i.e., init) rather than BAB. I'm currently trying to work out such a system--i'll probably post here, looking for feedback, if i think i've figured it out.

 

[woodelf]

Joe Fighter has a 2-handed sword. Bob Rogue has a dagger. Who gets to hit the other one first, everything else being equal? When speed factors are used, Bob Rogue does. In reality, Joe Fighter has a much longer weapon and would get in a blow before Bob Rogue could close.

I much prefer the current system where, at least for some weapons, reach the critical factor.

-O

The "attack priority" system (for AD&D1--i rejiggered it for AD&D2 and am thinknig about using it for D&D3E) dealt with this by having two init numbers for each weapon: "closing" and "engaged". The former was based on reach, the latter on speed. So the guy with reach has the advantage when they're far apart (or closing), but the guy with speed has the advantage up close. Reflected the advantages of quarterstaff, as an added bonus (one of very few weapons that can be wielded with reach or speed).

 

[woodelf]

I think everyone should go check out the "D20" Everquest Players Handbook for what I believe is the Best Weapon Speed rules I've seen.

Here's the basics...

In normal D&D, a standard fighter with a standard weapon attacks at his normal base attack bonus (plus modifiers). When he gets to Base attack bonus of +6, he gets an additional iterative attack at +1... etc.

In Everquest D20, there are 6 classes of "Weapon Delay"

--Weapon Delay 2: (Special)
Examples: No weapon is this quick, this catagory accounts for magic items or spells that would speed up an already "Very Quick" delay weapon.
Progression:
+0
+1
+2
+3/+1
+4/+2
+5/+3/+1
+6/+4/+2
+7/+5/+3/+1
etc...

--Weapon Delay 3 : (Very Quick)
Examples: A Monk attacing unarmed or with a special monk weapon.
Progression:
+0
+1
+2
+3
+4/+1

[snip]

So, if you are a Ftr12/Mnk1 fighting unarmed, do you get to use the monk staging, i.e. +13/+10/+7/+4/+1? I'm working on revamping # of attacks to be matched with init instead of BAB, because one of the problems with a variety of stagings is what happens when you mix them.

 

[Privateer]

I just have one, short question -- what if you're dual weilding? Would you take the best of the two (giving people a reason to use the rapier/dagger combonation used in real life) or the worst of the two (leading, most likely, to using two smaller weapons)?

Personally, I can't say I care for weapon speeds... as a DM, I've got enough on my plate. But whatever floats your boat -- it just happens to sink my battleship