Bringing back weapon speed!

[woodelf]

IRL, melee combat usually ends with the first wounding hit. You'll have either wounded him in the arm or the leg (leg wounds were the most common in medieval warfare) and then you'd have finished him off (or leave him as a burden for his allies). Also, IRL, a proficient longsword wielder has an enourmous, and I mean enormous, advantage over a dagger wielder. Wtih the reach and speed of your weapon, it's almost impossible to close the gap (unless he throws the dagger). Essentially, he's your bitch. The dagger wielder would have to be *much* better than the sword wielder to have a chance. And if the sword wielder had a heater shield (shields are far better IRL than in D&D) as well, you've probably tripled again the odds in your favor.

Momentum isn't the issue most think it is when you know how to use it. Even a greatsword, the style in which you use it (often employing polearm-techniques) is designed to deliver swift blows. Cuts are short using the momentum of the blade to actually inflict the damage, none of this Conan-stuff you see in the movies.

Comment:
some of this misperception may come from the fact that, while better than previous editions, weapon weights in D&D3E are pretty high, aren't they? ISTR that, frex, polearms aren't near that heavy, except for the bludgeoning ones.

Question:
What about the concept of "getting inside" the reach of an opponent? is it possible to get inside the sword-wielder's reach, and is it an actual advantage (assuming a skilled swordsman), except for really big weapons, like the longer polearms?

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by woodelf:

Comment:
some of this misperception may come from the fact that, while better than previous editions, weapon weights in D&D3E are pretty high, aren't they? ISTR that, frex, polearms aren't near that heavy, except for the bludgeoning ones.

The weights in the PHB are designed to incorporate encumbrance into their numbers which is why they're so high. On my site in the Misc. section you'll find the "real world" (average) weights of the D&D weapons (if you're interested) and a set up simplified "Bulk" rules.

Question:
What about the concept of "getting inside" the reach of an opponent? is it possible to get inside the sword-wielder's reach, and is it an actual advantage (assuming a skilled swordsman), except for really big weapons, like the longer polearms?

"Getting inside his reach" just means getting close enough so that you can hit him (which means getting past that 3' of sharp steel). I'm not 100% certain I know what you're asking here but for a dagger wielder, your best bet is to run... Baring that though, get into a grappling situation where the sword wielder is at a disadvantage (much easier said than done). Remember reach advantages are measured in inches IRL, not *feet* like in D&D. If the dagger wielder has a cloak, he can use that to try and temporarily trap the sword so can get in close (a popular renaissance technique).

Long polarms are only used when you have a whole horde of buddies beside you so that you're harder to reach. In single combat a short polarm like a poleaxe (5-7') is what you want. Good reach, can be used in close and can make both cuts and thrusts.


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[Obryn]

What about the concept of "getting inside" the reach of an opponent? is it possible to get inside the sword-wielder's reach, and is it an actual advantage (assuming a skilled swordsman), except for really big weapons, like the longer polearms?

Well... kinda. Certainly, if you keep within easy stabbing reach of the guy with the greatsword, you'll be at the advantage. He does need room to move that thing.

But that unfairly limits his combat choices. He can backpedal, for instance. Or use the crossguard. Or even conk you on the head with his pommel. (It's called a pommel for a reason.) Or he can grip his blade partway down with one hand and stab you. (Yep, this is really done.) Or..or..or.. Only way to 'stay inside' is to paralyze him, back him into a corner, or grapple him.

As noted, for the really big polearms or spears, this is definitely an issue, which is reflected pretty well in D&D3 with reach.

-O

 

[Anubis]

I a duel-style situation. in reality, a swordsman has a GREAT advantage over most longer polearm wielders. This is why only spears, halberds, and glaives were ever PROMINENTLY used in battle outside of an army situation. When a swordsman IRL gets inside that length, it is incredibly easy to disarm and gouge even a polearm expert. The "safe" polearms are things such as spears, the halberd, and the glaive. Everything else generally has very limited use.

 

[davethebrave371]

As someonw with a fair bit of weapons knowledge, I'm gonna be totally honest and (hopefully) end this debate.

Weapon speed is pedantic, pointless, *and unrealistic*. The "speed" of any particular weapon is directly based on the person's proficiency in said weapon. Some people may have a hard time wielding a katana, while masters can wield one faster than most can wield a dagger. Bigger weapons follow this as well. There are masters out there who could wield a greatsword extremely fast, faster than some can wield a dagger. Speed is not weapon-dependent in the least.

I totally agree. As someone who watches people with weapons, and has tried them out himself, I can attest to that. You ever seen Ba Gua in action? Their swords weigh something like twenty pounds. I've seen a Ba Gua master whip that thing around like it was a rapier. And, myself having tried rapiers and fencing, I can tell you a beginner with a rapier can't do ANYTHING CLOSE to comparable speed that a Ba Gua master can with a twenty pound sword. I've also watched a kendo dojo vs. iaido dojo match. Most of the iaido guys were crazy fast compared to the kendo guys, but one of the students of Kendo, Thomas, was able to outspeed the iaido guys every time. It was insane. And they were all using the same weapon.

 

[davethebrave371]

Yep, I bow down to your logic. I am sure that will end this debate for all time.

.

So, assuming that was sarcasm, I'm also then assuming you're referring to the fact that he said that he'd "hopefully" end this argument. Did he say end the debate for all time? And if the sarcasm was because of disagreement, back it up.

 

[Planesdragon]

Everquest has delay

The Everquest RPG (From SSS and Sony) has a "Weapon Delay" mechanic.

It doesn't affect initative, but it does reflect weapon speed, allowing for more / easier multiple attacks.

For your demo scienrio, I suggest just you break the round into halves, during which each person gets half their action.

Thus, if the Ogre has to move and then attack, and the rogue loses iniative, the rouge attacks once after the Ogre moves, which would be followed by the Ogre's attack.

 

[Coredump]

[Sigh...]

Okay, I will explain my intent.

Dave

So, assuming that was sarcasm, I'm also then assuming you're referring to the fact that he said that he'd "hopefully" end this argument. Did he say end the debate for all time? And if the sarcasm was because of disagreement, back it up.

No, the sarcasm was not because of the disagreement, it was due to the profound arrogance inherrent in his post.

Anubis

As someonw with a fair bit of weapons knowledge, I'm gonna be totally honest and (hopefully) end this debate.

While possibly not consciously intented, the inherrent message here is that *unlike everybody else* Anubis has a 'fair' bit of knowledge, and once we have *HIS* opinion (oh sorry 'Fact') then it will all be settled; no need to argue anymore, afterall "anubis has spoken"
Anubis continues

Weapon speed is pedantic, pointless, *and unrealistic*.

So, you are saying what about those that think it is a reasonable characteristic to factor? Oh wait, Anubis has a 'fair' amount of knowledge, and therefore that is enough to make his assertions 'fact'. Come on. I have no problem with you having these assertions, but stop painting yourself as the end-all of intelligent discussions.

More righteousness...

My statement was not based on logic, it was based on FACT. Ask any weapons expert. Anyone with even rudimetary knowledge of weaponry can tell you that the skill in a particular weapon is all that matters and that weapon type and size makes no difference.

Gee, now your opinions/experiences are "FACTS". And now every weapons expert will agree with you? What does that say about those that disagree? Their facts must be 'wrong', and they must not have the knowledge that you do; and must not know any real weapons masters. What a pompous assinine statement to make. Having an opinion is fine, stating as pure fact is not.

But that isn't enough, talk about chutzpah...

Also, I would hope this would end the debate. First, there are absolutely no balance issues from an in-game to use as a basis for weapon speed, so mechanics are not a reason. Second, weapon speed is unrealistic, so there is no realism basis for this debate. What's left? Nothing. With no reason to bring back weapon speed, mechanic nor realistic, then what's the point of the debate?

In other words, you're arguing over absolutely nothing or value.

Gee, I guess everybody else should just wish they were as knowledgable as Anubis. How stupid for all these people to be concerned about what *you* *think* is "absolutely nothing of value" Yeah, like *your* opinion should be enough to 'end the debate'. How do you fit your ego into the room with you??

So, to elaborate, the size and weight of a weapon means *NOTHING* to how fast you can move it?? That is patently absurd. I will guarentee you a 2 lb dirk will be much easier/faster to move than the 20lb sword Dave mentions. If nothing else, physics will take care of that.

Basically, glitches and mistakes aside, a dagger is as fast as a longsword is as fast as a greatsword if you wanna go with "realism".

This just doesn't hold up. Just looking at the dagger and longsword, *how* can they be moved at the same speed? It just defies the laws of physics. You give me a 2' dirk, and you take a 40" sword, I will guarentee the dirk will be faster to move; all other variables being equal.


As for the Iaido vs Kendo; I would expect Iaido to be 'faster'. Kendo has become much more formalized, at least at the low-mid levels. The number of allowable blows, and how they are thrown is not prone to realism. From what I have seen, this is relaxed at higher levels. Iaido, otoh, is concerned with quickly using the sword; fast draw and all that. So I would expect low level Iaido to be 'faster' than low level Kendo. But I do not have extensive knowledge of either, so those are just initial assumptions.


Now, to get to the actual disagreeing....

What both of you are talking about is the role of expertise in how fast a weapon is. No one is arguing that, but you are using that 'fact' to claim that it is the **ONLY** determination to weapon speed.
Anubis

There are masters out there who could wield a greatsword extremely fast, faster than some can wield a dagger. Speed is not weapon-dependent in the least.

Dave

Their swords weigh something like twenty pounds. I've seen a Ba Gua master whip that thing around like it was a rapier.

Of *course* a master will be fast/good at what he does. No one is saying otherwise; but that does not make it the *only* criteria.

And, myself having tried rapiers and fencing, I can tell you a beginner with a rapier can't do ANYTHING CLOSE to comparable speed that a Ba Gua master can with a twenty pound sword.

Sure, no problem, but you are not comparing rapier to Ba Gua, you are comparing master to newbie. Now, how about a newbie with a rapier, against a newbie with a Ba Gua? Which one will be able to move it faster?? *THAT* is the point.

Just because a 'master' is really good, does not make all weapons equal. A master will compensate for a specific weapons weaknesses, and that may include speed. He will use a 'slower' weapon differently, so that it will not seem as slow; he will use its momentum differently; but that will not allow him to change direction as readily. Being a 'master' has little to do with the weapon you are weilding, it has more to do with understanding yourself, and being able to interpret your opponents.

enjoy.

 

[Anubis]

My statement was not made out of arrogance, it was made out of experience. You're the one being arrogant, assuming most likely that because I play D&D I must have no real knowledge of anything. You need to come to the real world, man.

What YOU try to pass off as weapon speed is actually a strength issue, not a weapon speed issue. When a person trains in a weapon, he or she usually trains in a weapon that he or she will be able to handle properly. As such, you will not see some cheerleader trying to wield a greatsword, but rather a foil or sabre or the like. On the other end, a guy like Bill Goldberg could easily pick the greatsword and probably swing it around with one arm. But a longsword to the cheerleader probably feels like a kitchen knife to Bill Goldberg. See the point?

That is how a weapon is chosen AND is also one of the reasons why the katana is the most popular melee weapon in the world. Versatility. Few people have the STRENGTH to wield the greatsword properly. Again, that is not a weapon speed issue. In D&D, this issue would be resolved with a condition that you need at least X Strength to wield the greatsword without penalty. Ya' know, much like the Exotic Weapon Proficiencies for bastard sword and dwarven waraxe. I would say 15 would be the target number for the greatsword, maybe 17.

Weapon speed as a game mechanic, however, is something that happened REGARDLESS of weapon mastery, which is how it is so easily identifiable as an unrealistic and problematic mechanic. I guarantee a master greatsword wielder will be just as "fast" as a master dagger wielder. Then again, it's also not just about speed, but rather technique. The greatsword wielder can strike as fast as the dagger wielder, but he does it differently to compensate for weapon weight.

Oh, and yes, any real weapon master would support what I'm saying here. You need to drop your damn attitude or just keep your mouth shut.

 

[Coredump]

Huh???

I a duel-style situation. in reality, a swordsman has a GREAT advantage over most longer polearm wielders.

Really?? Since you say they are both just as fast. I would have thought having double the range, and more weight behind the blows would have gone a fair bit to give the polearmsmen an advantage. Assuming you are speaking of a longswordsman, and does he have a shield?? And what is a 'longer polearm wielder'?

When a swordsman IRL gets inside that length, it is incredibly easy to disarm and gouge even a polearm expert.

uh, I really don't think you will be disarming a polearm expert.How? With what? It just doesn't make sense.

The "safe" polearms are things such as spears, the halberd, and the glaive. Everything else generally has very limited use.

Well, I don't think I would include spear in there, a spear is too limiting of a threat. You also state 'things such as'; what would *not* be like a halberd or glaive?

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