Broken Wizard combo?

[MrBeens]

Our wizard player spotted this one last session.

He has an Orb of Fickle Fate, plus Orb Mastery. Plus a feat that gives -2 saves against effects.

So he'll kick off an encounter with Destructive Salutation, and if it hits, use his Orb Mastery and the Fickle Fate power all stacked together to give the target -12 to it's save.

In other words, it can save when it rolls 22 on a d20. And until then, it is stunned. Unless it's an elite in which case it can save.. on a 20.

Am I missing something or is this really legal?

It is powerful, but I doubt your wizard player only just spotted this. It looks to me like he has been building his character towards this exact combo

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yeah, that's a litte nasty. A solo is more likely to get out of it - only needs to roll a 17.

It's 1/day, so give the players eventful days and large encounters, and you'll hardly notice it. Throw overlevelled elites at them 1/day, and it'll be overpowering. You can be positively vindictive about it. For instance, have the first encounter of the 'day' be vs a group with an elite. The elite is a tempting target - if the Wiz goes for it, he gets a reasonable use out of a daily combo, and, you are now free to throw smaller encounters and 'boss' encounters at the party without worrying about the combo. If he keeps saving it, stick with multiple-enemy encounters the rest of the day, tending towards weaker individuals in larger numbers. You can even do a 'magician's' force - have a two-critter encounter consisting of two creatures, one with a powered-up template, the other normal (but have the normal and enhanced version of each written up). Whichever one gets stun-locked, it was the normal one.

Pull these tricks subtly enough and the player will drive himself crazy about always 'wasting' his uber combo.

 

[Thaed]

Thank you sir may I have another.

As an active rules abuser, I am happy to see that some broken combos made it past the gauntlet of play testing.

All hail the power gamer.

Did I mention I will be debuting this abuse in a game near me within a fortnight?


As a tyranical GM, I thought it was a problem when penalties had no stacking restrictions, but bonuses did. I see the flaw.

Of course my players can expect to face the same broken combos they dish out. An NPC wizard who lays the broken combo on your party will send them screaming for a house rule right away.

 

[Maldor]

Spell Focus and Orb Mastery apply to wizard powers. Destructive Salutation isn't a wizard power; it's a blood mage power.

No it's a wizard power the paragon Paths are not class by themself but extenstion of you exsiting class any powers they give are of the class that they are the 11th level of. Check page 53 in PH1 if this did not help you.

 

[Victim]

No it's a wizard power the paragon Paths are not class by themself but extenstion of you exsiting class any powers they give are of the class that they are the 11th level of. Check page 53 in PH1 if this did not help you.

Yeah, I did. I saw nothing there to indicate that paragon path powers count as class powers. Which would also have other implications (like multiclassing).

And the Blood Mage text itself distinguishes between Blood Mage powers and wizard powers in one of the other features.

 

[Bagpuss]

Your player is using a perfectly legal combination. WotC needs to consider some errata.

And until then introduce a house rule.

 

[Maldor]

Yeah, I did. I saw nothing there to indicate that paragon path powers count as class powers. Which would also have other implications (like multiclassing).

And the Blood Mage text itself distinguishes between Blood Mage powers and wizard powers in one of the other features.

page 53 middle of fifth paragraph "all the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come in addition to your class powers and features, not instead of them. you don't stop being a cleric when you become aradiant servant. Instead, you gain new capabilities that extend, enhance, and complement the abilities of your class."

but that isn't the piont of this tread it isn't which power he uses thats cuasing the problem he doesn't like the -12 to saves for one spell a day.

 

[Victim]

page 53 middle of fifth paragraph "all the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come in addition to your class powers and features, not instead of them. you don't stop being a cleric when you become aradiant servant. Instead, you gain new capabilities that extend, enhance, and complement the abilities of your class."

but that isn't the piont of this tread it isn't which power he uses thats cuasing the problem he doesn't like the -12 to saves for one spell a day.

That doesn't say anything about what kind of powers they are though. Sure, a wizard has Blood Mage powers on top of his class powers. But he also might have racial powers. Elven Accuracy is a racial power, not a wizard power, even if a wizard has it. Similarly, Bloodmage powers are not, in fact, wizard powers even if wizards have them. They say Bloodmage on them, not wizard. A character can have racial powers, class powers, paragon path powers, and a power from his epic destiny - but only the ones actually from the class are class powers even though the other powers are also in addition to class ones.

And it does make a difference. Sleep can be even more brutal - but it will have a save unmodified by Orb of Imposition before it can be used lock someone into sleep. And other wizard powers that have Save Ends stun (29: Legion's Hold, and 25 Prismatic Spray. Plus anything in AP) aren't available until later. They also don't stun on a miss.

Ruling that PP powers aren't class powers also means that the wizard can't recycle Destructive Salutation with Arcane Mastery every other encounter too.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Our wizard player spotted this one last session.

He has an Orb of Fickle Fate, plus Orb Mastery. Plus a feat that gives -2 saves against effects.

So he'll kick off an encounter with Destructive Salutation, and if it hits, use his Orb Mastery and the Fickle Fate power all stacked together to give the target -12 to it's save.

In other words, it can save when it rolls 22 on a d20. And until then, it is stunned. Unless it's an elite in which case it can save.. on a 20.

Am I missing something or is this really legal?

It's legal, and it's been known for ages, and my guess is that your wizard player didn't spot it, but rather read about it elsewhere.

The solution is to ask him to not be an arse. This is one of those combos that destroys the game.

 

[WalterKovacs]

That's why you don't put the penalty on until they have the unconscious condition :teach:

Which involves crossing your fingers and hoping for the best, since the people you most want to put to sleep are the ones with bonuses to their saves. So, hitting the solo and hoping he fails the first save so you can sleep lock him isn't the most broken of strategies.

You might have a couple cases where you are against multiple elites where it will be a useful strategy, but generally, not using the orb means it's unlikely they'll actually drop unconcious.