Brutal Seething Surge

[KarinsDad]

I think this spell is more potent at low levels especially since you will cast in it conjunction with spells like Haste and Spectral Hand, but I do not think it is broken.

For a Wizard, 5th level is when he can first do this type of combo. It takes a 3rd and a 2nd. He casts Spectral Hand ahead of time (often possible).

60% * D8+ 5 (assuming he hits with touch attacks 60% of the time with the +2 from Spectral Hand)

So, he only averages 5.7 points of damage with no save in one round, but he can do this at range every round for 5+ rounds (depending on how often he misses). That's most of a combat. He can also critical upwards of 26 points of damage in a single round. When compared to his crossbow that does an average of maybe 0.9 points (assuming a 20% hit chance), it does some significant damage.

Against another 5th level Wizard with 14 to 29 hit points, that will take him out in 1 round best case, 3 to 5 rounds on average. 2 to 3 Magic Missile spells will also typically take out the same 5th level opponent Wizard in 2 to 3 rounds unless he has the Shield spell memorized.


When you throw a DC 15 or higher Fort Saves against Daze on top of that, there is a fair chance that any non-spell caster opponent cannot counterattack on the next round at that level.


Or, combined with Mirror Image, it is like doing D8+5 combat damage (Fighter level damage) with touch attacks (better than Fighter level to hit).


Effectively, any way in which you can drastically increase your defense (Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin) or increase the number of attacks per round you can get with this (Haste, higher levels) or give yourself range (Spectral Hand), can make this spell a lot more effective than what it sounds on the surface.

Hasted for this doubles the average damage at lower levels.

The other time this starts becoming more effective is 12th level when the caster can do upwards of 3 attacks per round with this when Hasted (full round attack plus partial action attack). This can result in 50 points of damage per round without criticals.

But, the best use of this spell is to finish off opponents that are already injured 80% or so.


The real issue here is that this spell can be significantly increased in effectiveness due to other spells. Does that make the spell broken?

I do not think so. This spell is good continuous damage, but it is slow. Yes, if you use Spectral Hand and attack from range and behind cover (or with good defensive spells), you will take out one or more opponents within a combat with only a few spells. But, taking out a few opponents in a combat is not that big of a deal.

 

[Alejandro]

I think Dinkledog's suggestion of a cap at level 10 is good, especially since it's a 3rd level spell.

 

[Jeremy]

I think if it was medium range and an area of effect spell, it'd be a 5th level spell. But as it's touch and only a single creature per round and you can't cast spells while it's in effect without losing it, it's 3rd.

If it only affects a single target and is a touch spell it has a right to be more powerful than area of effect spell of the same level.

Look at some other 3rd level touch spells.

Haste. Better than Seething Surge, hands down.

Spider Poison. Would be a DC 29 Fort save or take 1d6 strength damage that goes away at one point per day, 10 rounds later another 1d6 at the same save. The fact that you get half your caster level to your DC here makes it a powerful contender though I'd give Seething Surge the edge.

Displacement. It depends on the scenario. 50% chance to miss no matter how good your attack bonus can be pretty powerful, especially when added to a high AC you can get from spells. Evenly matched with Seething Surge.

Explosive Runes. Given the fact that they are permanent, it depends on how many go off at once and how often you have to defend something. Utility also adds bonus points, difficulty of use in combat negates it. Advantage Surge.

Fly. Advantage Fly.

Mind Raid. Here's a fun one. Lot's of goodies to be had here. But daze/stun is nice too. Advantage Surge.

Shadow Strike. Depending on the application this one can go either way. Evenly matched.

Vampiric Touch. 1/2 caster level d6, no save. Heal or gain temporary hp equal to damage. Rawr. Love this one. Evenly matched.

Just looking up the list I'd say it's balanced. Core Rules only games might not like it, but it's far from being "broken". Kudos to creative people who use spell combinations.

 

[drnuncheon]

Comparing BSS with other touch spells.

Chill touch is level 1, does 1d6 (no save) + 1 str damage, and lasts for 1 attack per level. This seems to be the one that is closest to brutal seething surge in effect.

Ghoul touch is level 2 and paralyzes a single opponent for an average of 3 times as long (plus the stench), but does no damage.

Vampiric touch does much more damage (to a single target) and adds the benefit of (temporarily) healing you.

Strangely, the rest of these spells are instantaneous while brutal seething surge is not. An oversight?

One other note: the daze effect is not the same as Tasha's hideous laughter - the latter spell causes the target to drop prone, which gives their opponents some nice combat bonuses. (On the other hand, bss doesn't suffer the targeting restrictions of daze or laughter.)

I think it's on the high end of 3rd level spells, honestly - looking at it, it's great, but I don't think it compares to 4th level spells like stoneskin or enervation. It's good against single opponents, but the damage is slow - it takes you 2 standard actions before you can start to do damage, and you're doing 1d8+level to a single opponent. You guys are 15th level? Had you cast one flame arrow spell you could have done 12d6 to one target in one action - leaving you with another action and a 2nd level spell slot to do some more harm (maybe with an acid arrow for 2d4/round for the next 5 rounds?).

If your group thinks its too powerful, make sure you're treating it like other touch spells (preventing the user from casting other spells if he wants to use the spell to its full effect).

J

 

[Hammerhead]

Also, while using BSS extensively is efficient, because it's a low level spell that does lots of damage, it's not very fast. 2 BSSs in hasted round does 2d8+30. 2 Firebrands uses up more powerful spells, but does 30d6 to multiple targets, although it doesn't daze people. 2 Fire Orbs also require attack rolls, RTAs instead of tough range though, and would do up to 30d6 to one target and can daze people.

If you want good damage that doesn't use high level spells and lets you avoid using spells in later rounds, then BSS is a good choice. On the other hand, using bigger spells does great damage, but at greater cost. You can use BSS to use the same few low level spells, or you can throw a few more powerful evocations in a bid to prevent further rounds of combat.

I'd probably say that BSS is a better deal for a wizard, since they have fewer spell slots to waste. A sorcerer can throw out his biggest spells for a while before running out, and can use any spell slot for firepower.

 

[Someone]

The problem is the Daze effect IMHO. Note that the spell forces a save for each hit; it´s a really, really cheap way to make a target make lots of saves or lose a good part of combat. While it´s dazed you can continue BSSing it, and force more and more saves.
While it´s true that it can´t compare to Haste, note that Haste it´s probably better rated at higer level (Anyone imagines a mage or sorcerer not taking Haste as a 5 or even 6 level spell? But I digress)

 

[Celebrim]

I agree with Someone.

The damage it does can be easily addressed by the mitigating factors (touch attack), and is not out of line for a 3rd level spell anyway (in fact its a little low until the two attacks per round thing comes into effect).

And Haste as a 3rd level spell has more to do with the fact that it's always been a 3rd level spell and less to do with its actual influence on game play.

The real problem is the damage plus daze. The spell would be pretty powerful as a repeatable touch version of Tasha's Uncontrollable Hidieous Laughter. As a repeatable touch version of TUHL and Shocking Grasp together, it is worrisome. It's not 'Are you insane!?!' worrisome, but its definately going to have a huge impact on play.

Jeremy: If it was an area of effect spell, I'd personally find it somewhat less potent, since each target could only be effected once per casting. There are already plenty of nice damaging area effect spells. Heck, as an area of effect spell, this is scarcely worse than Sonic Burst (only a 2nd level spell). This is fulfilling an entirely different and previously empty niche.

The spell combination makes it worse, but it doesn't really bother me (as I said in the original post). The spell bothers me even without the combination, because it has a pretty good shot of completely taking even potent opponents right out of the game. If you don't have a good Fort save or don't have acid resistance of 20, then you better have a darn good touch AC - or this might as well be finger of death. There aren't many things that are going to make two Fort saves vs. a high level caster's DC. Once this starts, you will never get another action, and this in my opinion is far worse than damage.

As for TUHL knocking the opponent prone, that's true but its only +4 to hit prone. More important is that you get 1d3 free rounds to wail away/cast spells while your opponent is laughing it up ("Stop it, you're killing me!"). And balancing against TUHL knocking an opponent prone, is that it only effects creatures with 3 INT or better, and non-humanoids get a +4 to save. So I consider the two effects a wash. If I could hit my opponent with TUHL 15 straight times, maybe multiple times, at the cost of one spell, I'd happily do it. Once the effect kicked in, the fact that it was a touch spell would no longer be a big worry. AND, on top of that, I'm doing some pretty good damage.

Are there limitations? Sure. But I can definately see how this could annoy a DM.

 

[drnuncheon]

If you don't have a good Fort save or don't have acid resistance of 20, then you better have a darn good touch AC - or this might as well be finger of death. There aren't many things that are going to make two Fort saves vs. a high level caster's DC.

It's a 3rd level spell...DC 13+(stat mod) should not be all that bad comparatively. (And if he's using Heighten Spell he's burning a higher level slot.)

Once this starts, you will never get another action, and this in my opinion is far worse than damage.

That's another thing...I think the dazing effects should overlap, not stack. Not sure what Dinkeldog is doing in his game, but the spell is a lot more vicious if you stack the next 1d3 rounds of daze onto the end of the first 1d3, rather than having them run at the same time.

Also remember the spectral hand can be attacked (and it only has 1d4 hp) or dispelled. Area spells are going to toast it if it fails its save (even with improved evasion).

J

 

[KarinsDad]

I think the Daze factor is nice, but not critically important to the balance discussion.

At level 5 when you can first cast it, your opponents will tend to have +1 to +9 versus it and your DC will tend to be in the 15 to 17 range. So, 25% to 75% chance of saving. As you go up levels, the opponents saves will tend to increase (as a general rule due to it increasing 1 or 2 levels out of 3 plus magic) faster than your ability to increase the DC (with things like Spell Focus and increasing your primary ability score).

Compare that to level 1 Sleep where you affected multiple opponents, their chances to save were in the range of +0 to +6 and your DC tended to be in the 13 to 15 range. So, 30% to 70% chance of saving.

So, the chances of saving are comparable with Sleep for a first level caster. So compared to a first level spell (at acquired level), it does:

1) PRO - Level+ in damage each round if it hits.
2) PRO - It is useful at higher levels (Sleep maxes out).
3) EQUAL - Save percentages for equal level opponents.
4) EQUAL - D3 rounds of Daze if it hits and save fails as opposed to Sleeping until you are awakened (at least in combat) if save fails, which also takes an opponent waking someone out for a single round. Actually, Sleep probably has a slight edge here due to the to hit required.
5) CON - It is a touch spell, so range (without Spectral Hand or something) and utility (such as casting other spells) is limited.
6) CON - It does not affect multiple targets simultaneously.
7) CON - It is two levels higher.
8) CON - You can CDG with Sleep.

All in all, at the level acquired, Sleep appears significantly more potent than this. The main difference being that Sleep is only good for a few levels whereas this is equally good at higher levels. However, except for the level 12 boost in number of attacks per round, it does not significantly increase in power without the use of other spells.

 

[Halma]

Wow

Wow thanks Guys this is great!!!!

I like the arguments both for and against this spell... Currently I think the vote is slightly leaning towards against the Spell.

Please if anyone else has any opinions keep them coming....

This may make or break the spell in our group. Allowing it has been the question.

Shorty has +11 to Evocation spells, Cloak of Charisma +4, Spell focus EVOCATION, Greater Spell focus EVOCATION, Spell casting prodigy. and 16 Charisma from the start, Now 18. So to say the least he is Min Maxed... not the norm, and normally not my style. I thought the spell was cool, because of the two types of effects and the multiple attacks.

I am using the Monte Sorcerer, so Haste is a 4th lvl spell(he uses this liberally) so is Fly... which he doesn't have.

Casting two Spectral Hands never came to mind thanks for the Idea there......I only hit twice, now I can use it three times in a round.


Halma "The Dead Barbarian"