Brutal Seething Surge

[the Jester]

Interesting discussion!

One thing I'd point out for comparison is the Brain Lock psionic ability. It's a second-level psion power (roughly equivalent to a 2nd-level wiz/sor spell) that essentially dazes a single target for 1 round/level. It only affects humanoids of medium or smaller size. It's medium range.

Another is Bolts of Bedevilment. This is a medium-range spell that allows one ray per round. A hit dazes a living target for 1d3 rounds. This is a 5th level _prestige domain_ spell.

Sooo... how does BSS stack up?

Well, add in damage, lots of it (potentially). Add in that it's a Fort save instead of Will... Add in that it isn't limited to humanoids, or for that matter to living creatures. It isn't mind-affecting, and it's a Fort save, so it'll affect a lot of things other daze effects won't (still won't get undead or the like since they're immune to Fort saves that don't explicitly affect objects).

Ignoring the damage for the moment, I'd say this is a mage killer. I always find it interesting that people set up test arguments for spells and the like with the best possible opponent (in this case, a fighter with his good Fort save). To _really_ check balance you need to look at the worst case.

So say you're a sorcerer or wizard, your Fort save sucks, and your enemy comes up and hits you with this spell once. Say you're 5th level and so is he. You take 1d8+5 damage (not too bad, but it's still likely to be around 25-50% of your hp at 5th level). Most likely you fail your save. They you basically keep taking 1d8+5 per round for the next few rounds and keep having to make those damn Fort saves.

Ouch.

Sure, maybe your fighter bud is gonna save your bacon, but not if the enemy fighter keeps him tied up for a couple of rounds.

It gets much worse at higher levels, as the discussion has shown.

Now, BSS gives you one touch attack per level. Bolts of Bedevilment gives you one ranged touch per level. But BSS does damage as well as the daze, and there's no save vs. the damage, and it's acid damage (one of the better types in my opinion). And BoB is 5th level vs. 3rd level for BSS.

Looks like BSS is a better choice overall, especially given how simple it is to extend your touch spells with spectral hand or the feat in DotF that makes a touch spell a ray. Granted that BoB is clerical, not wiz/sor; but it's two levels higher, plus it's a _prestige domain_ spell. I can't emphasize this enough, and yes, I know the madness domain has been opened up somewhat, but it was designed to be a prestige domain. A quick look at the various prestige domains reveals that they're basically designed to be superior to regular domains. So BoB might be a 6th level cleric spell if it was on the regular list.

Looking for domain spells to compare vs. their arcane counterparts that are of a similar vein, Confusion is equal level as a wiz/sor spell and as a domain spell. Ditto for suggestion, emotion, and insanity (all in the charm domain). At a glance, only charm monster is higher level as a domain spell than as a wiz/sor spell, at least as far as mind-affecting stuff goes. So I'd say if BoB was a wiz/sor spell it should be around 5th level, maybe 6th.

Now how's that comparison look?

As for brain lock, its one advantage is being a medium range spell. It is limited to medium or smaller humanoids, it's explicitly mind-affecting, and it gives a Will save. That is certainly less powerful than BSS, whose only disadvantage (compared to BL) is the range of touch. Now, BL is of course a psionic power, and again at a glance, mind-affecting powers tend to be a tad lower level for psions (charm monster is 3rd, for example; domination is 4th; mass suggestion is 5th). I don't think this necessarily would be a 3rd level wiz/sor spell, but maybe a high-end 2nd level one.

Yep, I'm gonna have to say that BSS is a touch overpowered.

How do ya fix it?

Well, cap the damage at +10, for one thing. For another, make the daze an explicitly mind-affecting effect. Poof! Fixed.

All this is, naturally, in my opinion.

 

[KarinsDad]

KarinsDad, if the familiar and sorcerer both have haste, the sorcerer gets three attacks/round and the familiar two more. That makes the total five.

But, not 5 ESS attacks.

You are missing two points:

1) If the Wizard casts ESS on the Familiar, it is NOT a shared spell. It is a touch spell where the Familiar is designated as the “touchee”. If the Wizard then casts ESS on himself, the one on the familiar goes away. So, both the Wizard and the Familiar cannot both have ESS up simultaneously. The rules do NOT allow it.

Hence, at most 3 attacks by the Wizard with Haste and ESS.

2) If the Wizard shares a Haste with the Familiar and the Familiar flanks, the shared Haste spell goes away since the Familiar must attack from the opposing direction of the target, hence, moving more than 5 feet away from the Wizard. So, the Wizard would have to cast two Haste spells in order to get a flanking bonus and to have 3 ESS attacks from himself, and two normal attacks from the Familiar.

But, the bottom line is that you can either have 2 ESS attacks from the Familiar with Haste, or you can have 3 ESS attacks from the Wizard with Haste. You cannot get 5 ESS attacks. Period.

The best use of the spell is against wizards and rogues. Don't look at it as it applies to taking out a fighter. Look at what happens to a group that loses their arcane spellcasting support for d3 rounds over and over and over again.

Edit: Ignore this nonsense in the next paragraph below. I keep forgetting that it is a Fort save. Yes, it has a good chance to Daze a Wizard, but Wizards should have higher touch AC than Fighters, so they should be harder to tag.

Well, Wizards have reasonably good Will saves, +3 to +4 better than the equivalent Fighter at the levels we are discussing (5 through 15). So, although it will do some nasty damage to the Wizard, it will rarely daze him. At level 7 from the equations above, it would Daze him in a single round anywhere from 15% to 28% of the time. That’s a fair chance of not getting Dazed and casting a spell as simple as Obscurement or Dimension Door to prevent a Spectral Hand, or a Familiar from finding the Wizard.

At higher levels, the percentages would probably be lower due to the Wizard having a good touch AC by having protection spells such as Shield, Haste, Mirror Image, etc. cast on themselves whereas the attacking Wizard/Familiar will only have BABs 3 better.

Rogues are in a bit of trouble, but then again, in combat, the Rogue is not the deadliest opponent. Hence, if you are targeting the enemy Rogue, you are leaving the enemy spell casters and combatant types alone. Hmmmm.


Since you are the DM, you should laugh at this tactic. There are so many ways to take out a Spectral Hand and you as DM have to enforce the 1 to 3 maximum ESSs per round, depending on whether it is the Wizard, the Familiar, or the Spectral Hand and whether Haste is involved.

 

[Hammerhead]

I don't see how Brain Lock enters the equation. It's the crappy psionic (isn't that redundant? )verion of Hold Person. Hold Person opens up a person to coup de graces, which will probably kill him.

Fort and Will saves are essentially equivlanet, IMHO. Both save types tend to have many spells that will neutralize enemies on a failed save. If Fort saves make spells great against spellcasters, then Will saves make them great against fighters. Especially at higher levels, you can pull just as many instant "kill" effects from each type. If losing your arcane blasting for 1d3 rounds is bad, losing fighting support for 1 round per level is also bad.

I don't have the stats for Bolts of Bedevilment so I can't comment as well about it. However, there's a huge difference between 1 target per level, and 1 target per round, for one round per level.

 

[the Jester]

I don't see how Brain Lock enters the equation. It's the crappy psionic (isn't that redundant? )verion of Hold Person. Hold Person opens up a person to coup de graces, which will probably kill him.

Fort and Will saves are essentially equivlanet, IMHO. Both save types tend to have many spells that will neutralize enemies on a failed save. If Fort saves make spells great against spellcasters, then Will saves make them great against fighters. Especially at higher levels, you can pull just as many instant "kill" effects from each type. If losing your arcane blasting for 1d3 rounds is bad, losing fighting support for 1 round per level is also bad.

I don't have the stats for Bolts of Bedevilment so I can't comment as well about it. However, there's a huge difference between 1 target per level, and 1 target per round, for one round per level.

Yeah, and my point about BoB is that it's much higher level with much less oomph.

I don't know, BSS doesn't seem super broken- but if it's hands down better than a 5th level spell (and I'd argue it is) than something's a little off.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, and my point about BoB is that it's much higher level with much less oomph.

That's debatable as well.

Pro BoB:

1) BoB has range built in allowing a caster to use it at range in round one. BSS does not and requires multiple spells and rounds to use at range. And, Spectral Hand can do damage to the caster and is often targeted, hence, typically short duration.

If someone casts Spectral Hand in round one, a lot of other characters are either going to recognize it, or know it via Spellcraft and be expecting a ranged touch attack next. So, they might often target the Spectral Hand (potentially Readying until the caster starts casting his next spell so that they partially waste two spells, SH and the presumed touch spell that was supposed to be used with it).

2) BoB will not go away if you cast another spell.

3) Minor Globe and Globe of Invulnerability stop BSS.

4) The save DC for BoB is two greater.


Pro BSS:

1) BSS has damage built in. BoB does not.

2) BSS is touch AC, BoB is normal AC (I believe, I do not have the definition of BoB in front of me).

3) BSS can be used multiple times per round based on BAB and Haste.


BoB is a domain spell. Divine spells are typically supposed to be less effective combat spells than Arcane spells (although some Domain spells are from the Arcane lists and some identical Divine spells are lower level than Arcane spells such as Hold Person), hence, no arcane spell failure. Pros and Cons.

BoB is also a domain spell typically for NPCs. Hence, it's utility to level ratio might be due to it being appropriate as opposed to optimized.


All in all, the bottom line is that BSS is slower starting up (or has no range), is easy to avoid at range (by destroying the Spectral Hand), goes away if the caster casts another spell, and requires other spells to assist it for it to truly be effective.

But it does damage, can potentially attack multiple times per round, and at lower levels, may be easier to hit against the types of targets it is best suited for.

And finally, we are comparing an arcane spell versus a divine one which implies that the arcane should, in general, be slightly more powerful.

They appear more appropriate as to where they are level wise than implied considering more factors than just damage and dazing though.

 

[Hammerhead]

Yeah, and my point about BoB is that it's much higher level with much less oomph.

I don't know, BSS doesn't seem super broken- but if it's hands down better than a 5th level spell (and I'd argue it is) than something's a little off.

Or BoB could just suck. There are always a few of those spells around. Most of the Creation type spells are junk, and how about Drawji's Instant Summons. There a enough crappy spells that you need to look at more than one to get a good base for comparision. Should Fireball only do 3d6 because Icestorm does 5?

BSS is doing less than normal damage - even at higher levels when it isn't capped - has a nifty daze effect, and is efficient since it can be used over multiple rounds. It's a strong 3rd level spell, make no mistake, but it's not exactly the ultimate weapon. And, based on damage and effect, I'd say that it clearly doesn't belong at 4th level, at least by the guidelines in the DMG. It's better than Icestorm, but, in IMHO, magic missile is better than ice storm.

I've found another dazing spell. Dark Bolt, from FCRS, is a level 5 Darkness domain spell. It shoots a number of rays equal to level/2 (max 7) out to medium range. The people it hits take 2d8 and must save or be dazed for 1 round. I think that the ability to hit 7 people at once is a huge advantage, despite the lack of damage dealing power. Add in the fact that arcane spells should have advantages offensively, and I think BSS is okay.

EDIT= spelling error

 

[Jeremy]

I don't know, BSS doesn't seem super broken- but if it's hands down better than a 5th level spell (and I'd argue it is) than something's a little off.

Brutal Seething Surge is hands down better than what 5th level arcane spell?

Check some earlier posts that compare it to just third level arcane spells.

Comparing it to 5th level arcane spells puts it up against spells like teleport, wall of force, dominate person, lesser planar binding, animal growth, and cone of cold... I don't think 10-20 points of damage plus daze by touch compares.

Check out the first level spell Bladesong off of the Wizards website. There's 10-20 damage (if it's wielded by a mid level swordsman) plus daze and it's only first level.

 

[Celebrim]

How does it compare with Bigby's Clenched Fist (an 8th level spell)?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Check out the first level spell Bladesong off of the Wizards website. There's 10-20 damage (if it's wielded by a mid level swordsman) plus daze and it's only first level.

Bladesong
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Weapon touched
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)
Bladesong makes a bladed weapon emit magical music in combat. Any round that the weapon is used in melee combat, this spell allows the wielder to make a single, additional touch attack with the sword as a free action. The attack uses the wielder's normal attack bonus with that weapon but inflicts no damage. Instead, anyone successfully touched by the weapon in this way is dazed for one round. Dazed characters cannot take actions but can defend themselves normally.
Focus: The weapon.

Sorry, no damage here, and it's 2nd level.

But it's still a nice spell, I wonder why my Bladesinger doesn't already have it

 

[Plane Sailing]

I would tend to compare the spell with another 3rd level touch spell, Vampiric touch. 1d6 damage per 2 levels, and you gain the hit points as temp hit points (yowsa!).

Mind you, a distinctive feature of BSS is that it is double dipping in the benefits it gets from caster level. Caster level adds to damage AND it adds to the number of times you can use it. This is what multiplies the damage up so badly.

Another problem is that it dazes for 1-3 rounds. Another is that it causes acid damage (why acid? it doesn't *sound* like an acidic spell. it sounds more like electricity than anything else!).

As a thought, without the daze effect it is much like having shocking grasp that can be used for one touch per level from a single casting. That would roughly equate to a +2 metamagic effect. What would it look like on other touch spells if for +2 levels you could use them 1/level? I think it would look completely horrendous! Even at +4 levels, "extended touch" CLW might be too good (maybe not though...) What would be an appropriate level for that kind of metamagic though? If I thought that +4 was an appropriate spell level increase then BSS would be a 5th level spell (even APART from the daze effect).

So, although I'm the first to admit that some of my reasoning above might be faulty, I think I would disallow BSS as "broken" as currently described.

Cheers