Brutal Throw too strong?

[The Grackle]

It's a powerful feat, but I think it's intentional. Thrown weapons just aren't that good, and it's sort of a patch to make a spear-chucker playable. Keep in mind you're throwing magical weapons, thrown weapons have poor ranges, and you're spending a lot of feats.

You should make the same 1/2 orc (27 str!) as a two-handed Power Attacker and compare average damage output in one round.

 

[IanB]

This would be house rule territory, but this isn't something I would allow you to pull off in my game without at least something like a quiver of Ehlonna to carry all those spears in. This is one instance where a size-modified encumberance system like 1E sort of had would be nice. Sure, you can carry the *weight* of all those spears, but it isn't really reasonable to be running around with a whole bushel of them unimpaired.

 

[Slaved]

I have a few questions about the build.

Why is your speed 20? You have the slow trait and are wearing full plate, should'nt that make your speed 10?

How are you qualifying for rapid shot or twf? Both have higher dexterity requirements than you have dexterity.

If the javelin is a light weapon and you qualify for all of the feats that you picked up then shouldn't your attack routine look a bit different considering the penalty for twf and rapid shot? You have +7 from BAB, +8 from strength, -2 from twf, -2 from rapid shot for a total of +11 which is then modified by magic or masterwork.

Following up on that, are the damages you have down correct? You do have a +8 strength modifier, but where is the rest of the damage coming from? +1 from magic is ok, but that is only +9 and you have +11 down.

It looks like this build is illegal in a numer of different ways. Unless I am missing something?

 

[Darklone]

You should make the same 1/2 orc (27 str!) as a two-handed Power Attacker and compare average damage output in one round.

I did, but it was rather puny compared to the easily achieved 4 attacks ... and full attack actions due to ranged combat (Rapid Shot and PBS advantage).

Edit:

Right Slaved... some mistakes are there.
Dex: 10 is wrong as well as str 25, it should be 24 (and the points put into dex).
Speed: Right. Slow trait has been added afterwards.
Attack routine includes Rage and PBS (+3 to hit and damage)... that's why damage and to hit are kinda screwed up. I forgot to add the PBS damage.
Left hand throw should be a non-magical javelin (1d6 damage) option...

I bet this can be done lots better... yet this relatively easy thing was already a little shock to me. Take a halfogre or goliath or half-giant and forget about the racial levels for example... bigger weapons...

 

[starwed]

Because of the spears? No, the char could have bought more +1 spears...

The price on those +1 spears will add up pretty quick... I found that, in actual play, buying multiple magic weapons to throw around is prohibitively expensive. And having the one-use, overpriced javelin of lightning isn't helping your wealth any.

Also, some nitpicky thoughts on your build.

• By taking the Slow flaw, you actually have a movement rate of 10, not 20. (That's bad news for a character which plans on using ranged attacks much. Especially one with an AC of 18!) Barbarian would help both this and every other part of your build except AC, though.
• You need Dex 13 to take PBS, Rapid Shot, and TWF, so that'll knock your Str/Con down another point.
• If you throw a spear instead of a javelin using TWF, you'll take another -2 on all your attacks. (Spears being one-handed weapons.)

(Ah, got beaten to each and every point while posting. ^_^)

I think it's as sick as allowing feats for Dex as additional ranged damage.

The trick here is that an archer is a very viable build without such feats. How many times have you seen a thrower build in D&D? It's possible, but it's certainly not an optimal choice. I'd say Brutal Throw makes them competitive, not overpowered.

I think I'll have to find my bloodstone blade build and post it, though, because it's pretty ridiculously sick.

 

[Darklone]

This was a scratch for an arena build... hope that explains the oddities (and the low AC).

You're right in one regard: Getting more attacks with TWF upgrades will lower the worth of Brutal Throw cause the char needs high Dex anyhow.

Thus monsters with str 30+ and dex 10 don't have 7 attacks with mostly full str bonus to attack and damage.

Thanks guys!

 

[KarinsDad]

Where is the Paragon PrC specified?

Thrown Weapons
The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand.

A Spear is a two handed melee weapon. You cannot use it with Two Weapon Fighting to get an extra attack per round. So, you cannot do this with your ranged attack, nor with your Spiked Gauntlet. With a two handed weapon, it is not a "weapon in each hand".

In fact, since it is a two handed weapon, it is presumably thrown with both hands (although there are no specific rules on that).

Even if TWF was allowed to throw 4 spears per round, there would be a -4 penalty to all of the attacks (TWF, off hand weapon not light).


Max 2 melee attacks per round for this PC with a spear.
Max 3 ranged attacks per round for this PC with a spear.


Recall that a spear has a range of 20 feet.

So sure, he is +16 within 20 feet, but he is also +14 within 30 feat, +13 within 40 feet, +11 within 60 feet, +9 within 80 feet, and +7 within 100 feet. Beyond that, he will have to pull out a different missile weapon.

So, a half dozen first level bowmen could seriously damage this guy at 300 feet before he gets into range. When raging, his AC is 16.


As DM, I would also force the player to explain how this PC can carry 15 spear-like objects, all of which can be Quickdrawed. The rules quasi-allow for it, but I would put a limit on the number of spears that could be carried and quickly accessed.

 

[starwed]

A Spear is a two handed melee weapon.

Changing that to shortspear (which is what I assumed he meant, although I now see that he's doing spear damage) doesn't really change much at all. Same with javelins.

A quiver of elhonna/efficiency is probably necessary to explain the massive amount of spears/javelins (It can hold 18/6 of them), but he can easily afford that by dumping the lightning javelins. (Which simply aren't worth much in this build... plus, in a one-shot like an arena, there's supposed to be a hefty markup on one-use items. [Isn't it x5 the price, or somthing like that? At least x2, anyway.] )

 

[Darklone]

Where is the Paragon PrC specified?

Halforc paragon.

A Spear is a two handed melee weapon. You cannot use it with Two Weapon Fighting to get an extra attack per round. So, you cannot do this with your ranged attack, nor with your Spiked Gauntlet. With a two handed weapon, it is not a "weapon in each hand".

Throwing two handed weapons (that are designed to be thrown) needs only one hand. Yet I will gladly accept that I'm wrong here if you show me the relevant rule. Yet I think there was some Sages advice ruling long ago about this... refering to only str damage to thrown twohanded weapons like the spear...

Even if TWF was allowed to throw 4 spears per round, there would be a -4 penalty to all of the attacks (TWF, off hand weapon not light).

That's why there are javelins (magical and nonmagical ones) in his left hand... sorry, that was cut in the original post.

Max 2 melee attacks per round for this PC with a spear.
Max 3 ranged attacks per round for this PC with a spear.

Did I post more than 2 melee attacks with a spear? TWF possible was meant to apply to the spiked gauntlets, not all at once...

Recall that a spear has a range of 20 feet.

Range increment. Yupp. The full routine ist most likely not used for distances greater than 40 ft.

At higher distances, he will most likely throw less spears to hit better.

 

[starwed]

Throwing two handed weapons (that are designed to be thrown) needs only one hand. Yet I will gladly accept that I'm wrong here if you show me the relevant rule.

Well,

Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively.

Your counter-argument might be that it specifies melee weapons, here. Yet a spear is a melee weapon, even if it's got a range increment. It doesn't say anything about making melee/ranged attacks, just using a two-handed melee weapon.