Buff, Scry, Teleport... A problem or not?

[Dissenter]

Quote from Metalsmith

Sillyness! All of your points flow from the first one, the silly point of making it illegal to kill "Bad Guys". I suppose you make the Palidin try to arrest the demon who lives in the forest and eats farmers.

I didn't realize I would recieve such a vehement, and utterly ridiculous reply.

You obviously haven't thought about the situation at all. Here are examples to back my position. With our current system of laws do we endorse assassination? No. Do we endorse vigilantism? No. Even when they seem utterly and completely warrented, it is still illegal to assassinate someone. If someone were to approach the police and say they had shot the 'serial killer of the era' would they be given a medal? Heck no, they would be thrown in jail and prosecuted.

I realize that a fantasy situation is different then the current one, but the moral questions remain the same. Who gives you the right to pronounce someone a 'bad guy' without witnessing their actions, or giving them a fair trial?

And by what you wrote, it seems you are still playing the black and white 'good guy' 'bad guy' dnd that so many of us left behind. If you want to make it that concrete, fine. Personally I like to add a little...make that a lot of depth to my games. Actions that may be justified still don't make them ethically correct. If you want to play a character without ethics, fine...I would say you are embracing societal chaos ( i.e. chaotic ). If you want to play a character with ethics then such a character would seriously think twice about stabbing the black and white 'bad guy' while he is in the privy. Frankly its unprofessional. How can you call yourself a combatant/adventurer/archmage or whatever when all you have really become is a glorified assassin. And where do you draw the line about which 'bad guy's' throat you are going to cut in their sleep? This guy killed and robbed a merchant, does this mean hes dead? This guy robbed a tavern does he get the strike team gack? This guy cheated on his taxes, does he get it? Children who might have skipped school that day will tremble in their sleep thinking the self justified strike team is scrying on them right now.

Even without the ethical dilemia of becoming the judge jury and executioner, it is still about fair play, and what is considered professional. Lawful characters would presumably fight with some kind of code of honor, whatever that might be. The same guy who would let a disarmed opponent pick up his sword is the same guy who would recoil in horror at the mages mention of the buffscrytel attack. Apparently you have never heard of the term honor before, so this is probably not making any sense to you.

That aside, its also about opening pandoras box. If this becomes common practice your PC's should be dead within 3-4 buffscrytels. Every 'bad guy' on the face of the planet will fear the strike teams imminent arrival, find the nearest wizard and buffscrytel gack you in the shower. However I would bet that you are playing the type of dnd where the PC's never take off their clothes, and even go to public functions armed and armored.

simple ethics 101.

Even after all of this I see a place for your black and white style of play. I'm not saying it wrong, and I can see why after dealing with the necessary complexities of the world you would want to sit down and play a in black and white world. However if you ever find yourself looking for something more, try throwing some real life issues into your game.

 

[Endur]

Buff Scry Teleport

I think the problem is the GM, not the players.

The GM needs to do two things:

1) Enforce the Scry Sensor Detection. Long before any area qualifies for "studied carefully", somebody in that area will have noticed the sensor.

The bad guys can then put into place their "counter plan."

2) Enforce the teleport miss chance. Make sure that the person doing the scrying is also the person doing the teleporting, etc.

The combination of the bad guy's anti-teleport defenses and the chance of the good guy's having a missed teleport should be sufficient to win the day.

Keep in mind that Scry is a very limited spell. It takes an hour to cast and you get a duration of 1 minute/per level. A GM could easily rule that you are focusing on the far away person and that you spend thirty minutes focusing your concentration, then you get your vision for several minutes, and then you take another thirty minutes coming out of the vision. During that half-hour while you are coming out of the vision, the bad guys could be putting their most diabolical plan in operation.

Tom

 

[mkletch]

While Mind Blank may be 8th level (requiring a 15th+level bad guy), I think we were talking about a party capable of casting teleport, and assuming that this wasn't the sole 5th level slot. Plus, the weight limit may or may not be a factor. So we are talking about 10th-12th level characters, and for them, a 15th-16th level villain is appropriate as an end of adventure boss, if you do the whole site-based thing.

I agree, Mind Blank may be a bit of overkill, though. The key IMO is to enforce the wording of the scry spell. Unless you plan to teleport onto the bad guy's nose, scry is not going to help you teleport there. You need an area, which other scrying spells (i.e. those that utilize Scry checks) might handle for you.

-Fletch!

 

[jgbrowning]

I didn't realize I would recieve such a vehement, and utterly ridiculous reply.

You obviously haven't thought about the situation at all. Here are examples to back my position. With our current system of laws do we endorse assassination? No. Do we endorse vigilantism? No. Even when they seem utterly and completely warrented, it is still illegal to assassinate someone. If someone were to approach the police and say they had shot the 'serial killer of the era' would they be given a medal? Heck no, they would be thrown in jail and prosecuted.

I realize that a fantasy situation is different then the current one, but the moral questions remain the same. Who gives you the right to pronounce someone a 'bad guy' without witnessing their actions, or giving them a fair trial?

And by what you wrote, it seems you are still playing the black and white 'good guy' 'bad guy' dnd that so many of us left behind. If you want to make it that concrete, fine. Personally I like to add a little...make that a lot of depth to my games. Actions that may be justified still don't make them ethically correct. If you want to play a character without ethics, fine...I would say you are embracing societal chaos ( i.e. chaotic ). If you want to play a character with ethics then such a character would seriously think twice about stabbing the black and white 'bad guy' while he is in the privy. Frankly its unprofessional. How can you call yourself a combatant/adventurer/archmage or whatever when all you have really become is a glorified assassin. And where do you draw the line about which 'bad guy's' throat you are going to cut in their sleep? This guy killed and robbed a merchant, does this mean hes dead? This guy robbed a tavern does he get the strike team gack? This guy cheated on his taxes, does he get it? Children who might have skipped school that day will tremble in their sleep thinking the self justified strike team is scrying on them right now.

Even without the ethical dilemia of becoming the judge jury and executioner, it is still about fair play, and what is considered professional. Lawful characters would presumably fight with some kind of code of honor, whatever that might be. The same guy who would let a disarmed opponent pick up his sword is the same guy who would recoil in horror at the mages mention of the buffscrytel attack. Apparently you have never heard of the term honor before, so this is probably not making any sense to you.

That aside, its also about opening pandoras box. If this becomes common practice your PC's should be dead within 3-4 buffscrytels. Every 'bad guy' on the face of the planet will fear the strike teams imminent arrival, find the nearest wizard and buffscrytel gack you in the shower. However I would bet that you are playing the type of dnd where the PC's never take off their clothes, and even go to public functions armed and armored.

simple ethics 101.

Even after all of this I see a place for your black and white style of play. I'm not saying it wrong, and I can see why after dealing with the necessary complexities of the world you would want to sit down and play a in black and white world. However if you ever find yourself looking for something more, try throwing some real life issues into your game.

Welcome to ENworld!

Firstly, a black and white world is the default for DnD. Moral relativism is campaign specific. He's playing by the book, albeit perhaps with not a lot of complexity, but the desired complexity level varies so much from game to game that i dont think complexity is a inherant benefit.

Secondly, comparing modern laws to a fantasy/medieval based game is not perhaps the best thing to do. In medieval periods "good" kings could take all your stuff away and that was completely legal and just as long as he "needed" it. Of course, my example of comparing RL Medieval world to the DnD world in order to attempt to "prove" my point is almost as silly (if not greater) than using modern concepts.

Welcome to ENworld!

joe b.

 

[The Mad Hatter 10 6]

Hit them back

For my campaigns, especially high level powerful ones, I just pleasantly remind the players out of context to be careful about opening pandora's box. If they were to employ a tactic such as buff-scry-teleport, all it would take is once for the BBEG to figure the same tactic. Besides, what BBEG would stand toe to toe with being caught totally unawares? I would have him teleport out of the situation right away (if he survived the first round) and what BBEG worth his salts wouldn't have contengincy spells in line that prevent his destruction (i.e. if he takes massive damage in one round *poof!* he teleports).

Players will learn that the game is FAR less fun and FAR less challenging if they continue to use similiar tactics... we had two high level campaigns end because of similar situations. One campaign got to the point that battles lasted one round... it was simply a race between which mage could cast Temporal Stasis first... no save, casting time 1... THAT blows. The second was the party used a Wish spell to decimate the BBEG's forces and minions, thus thwarting his plans... so he in turn used a Wish to decimate them... bye bye party.

Snuff them quickly a few time using the same things they are... they will learn that it isn't cool to have invested all that time in a character only to have it snuffed just as quickly as the bad guys. I am pretty sure they will change their tactics.

 

[Fenes 2]

In the end it depends on what kind of campaign you want to run. Do you like teleporting in to the lair of the BBEG for a fast-paced combat that is over after the first round (or the surprise round), where the amount of magical buffs the characters have are a major factor and tactics decide the rest, with the party, if successful, true resurrects the fallen, loots the place and then teleports back to their warded extradimensional fortress? Or do you prefer it when the party travels on foot through a foreign country until they reach the stronghold of the BBEG, then bet on their skills and wits to sneak past the defenses until they come face to face with the main opponent for a drawn-out fight lasting several rounds?

I, personally, prefer the second campaign. If I want near-instant transportation and intelligence capability, and fast battles with save-or-die weapons I play Shadowrun (With Jet transport, computer hackers and powerful firearms). In a fantasy campaign I go for the wandering, skilled party, not the teleporting magic-item users.

There is nothing wrong with playing the kind of high-level campaigns that seem to be the result of D&D palyed with standard rules and assumptions of wealth and magic, but it is not my cup of tea.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Still in House Rules territory, I'm afraid, but someone mentioned adding a 'Brustian' effect to teleports, with people coming out the far end suffering some form of nausea.

Teleporting is *very* common in Dragaera, but just as common are 'teleport blocks' - spells that prevent people teleporting in, out, or both... like a combination of Forbiddance and an area-of-effect Dimensional Anchor.

"At that moment there was a woosh of displaced air, and five more Jhereg were in the room, swords drawn. Oops. I drew recklessly on my link and tried to teleport, but failed. I sometimes wish teleport blocks could be outlawed."

There are also teleports alarms, that detect any teleports into an area.

"Alarms. 'Bing bing,' and 'Clang,' and everything else, both psionic and audible, went off all over the place. I hit the floor rolling and had a dagger ready to throw as my receptionist came bursting in, sword in one hand, dagger in the other. Then I realised what had happened - I saw Daymar floating cross-legged, about three feet off the floor.

"I was rather pleased that before he had time to uncross his legs and stand up (or stand down, as the case may be), there were a total of four of my people in the office, weapons drawn and ready."

Teleport blocks and alarms might not be cheap, but they appear to be standard procedure for people worried about b-s-t style attacks.

There's room for a lower-level block spell: something with a shorter duration than Forbiddance - one day, or one week, perhaps - but without quite such a hefty cost.

-Hyp.

 

[aliensex]

Well, lets take a look at Scry:


Knowledge DC
--------- --
None* 20
Secondhand (the character has heard of the subject) 15
Firsthand (the character has met the subject) 10
Familiar (the character know the subject well) 5
*The character must have some sort of connection to a creature the character has no knowledge of.

Connection Scry Check Bonus
---------- ----------------
Likeness or picture +5
Possession or garment +8
Body part, lock of hair, nail clippings, etc. +10

This spell creates a magical sensor located near the subject. Any creature with Intelligence 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a Scry check (or an Intelligence check) against DC 20.


So, to even Scry on someone, we need a connection. Assuming the party has not met the actual BBEG boss, they need one of the things listed above:

Likeness or picture. I doubt he had a lot of portraits done and handed out. No cameras either, so this one would be very hard to get.

Possession or garment. Unless he sends his laundry out, good luck there.

Body part, lock of hair, nail clippings, etc. If you could already raid his bathroom for this stuff, then whats the point of even Scrying? YOU'RE ALREADY THERE!

So, without having actually met the BBEG already, and maybe only having heard his name, or just the fact that he exists, means NO SCRY!! They have no real connection without a peice of him to go by, and I doubt a vague description from a minion would count either. So now the poor party is forced to actually go out and find him, before they could even Scry on him later. Sounds like an adventure to me.

Since the target gets an auto detect scry chance, I'd say it was a free action. Meaning he notices it (if the check succeeds) instantly, and has at least a free round to act, before the Scryer figures out he has noticed.

I don't think its too big a deal.

 

[Jeremy]

I take it scry doesn't get used too much in your games?

I find my big bads are either known to the pc's, or known to people the pc's come into contact with. I don't have very many behind the scenes evil masterminds with fanatically loyal soldiers and limitless funds from which to pay mercenaries from the background.

That's not to say that it is always apparent whom the bad guy is, or even that the guy is so bad. But often times scry buff teleport makes it difficult to have reoccuring villains or any long term thorn in your heroes side. If you've glanced him before, fought him, intimidated a name out of a crony, or charmed or dominated someone in the know, it's all academic. Whether you go through 3 intermediaries or none, it still becomes a matter of somehow having every person who's not so nice be on alert 24/7 with no life except for preparing combat spells.

Or even your middle bad guys, sure you can teleport away, if you happen to be a wizard, but you still haven't fixed the problem.

The problem is, why aren't your bad guys doing it. They aren't stupid, they've got the same access to the same spells. Why not just pre-empt would be good guys as soon as it looks like they could be a threat. Why waste time sending minions to die and equip your enemies when you can just sbt them. If they are asleep, unless they've all got masterwork mithril armor, they are unarmored, spell depleted, and groggy. Poof, kill priest, kill wizard, retreat. Poof kill rogue, kidnap fighter. Hold fighter hostage as slave labor incase good guys have rich cleric friends.

Even a moderately challenging encounter can become lethal if prebuffed against a surprised party who is running at half or less strength.

If you drop the watchman in the surprise round with a quiet spell or knife between the ribs, you can just coup de grace the other sleepers.

And if the PC's can be in situations like this, it would make sense that the bad guys sleep, eat, or defecate occasionally and thus would expose themselves to weakness.

I ran into one particular moment in games past where an evil wizard who was summoning demons en masse was working in his library and we tried to sbt him. Miraculously, he had expended no spells as yet that day in his summonings and indeed had his full assortment of party combat spells prepared as well as a simalcrum and an illusion of himself on hand along with 10 armed guards who weren't in the slightest surprised to see a glowing buffed party of adventurers teleport in.

You'd think evil wizards would occasionally be in their slippers pouring over books experimenting...

But because of sbt, they either lose that part of their life, or come stamped with expiration dates.

 

[aliensex]

I know, I know. All the party has to do is encounter the BBEG once, and any Wiz (or whatever) with at least a decent Scrying skill would be able to find him again.

I suggest people look closely at teleport again.

(From the SRD):

"Very familiar" is a place where the character has been very often and where the character feels at home.

Well, the target is not likely to be there, unless he is sneaking through the character's stronghold.

"Studied carefully" is a place the character knows well, either because the character has been there often or the character has used other means (such as scrying) to study the place.

The key word here is STUDY. Just because they Scried in on the target, doesn't mean that they automatically get to teleport under the "Studied carefully" category. At best a Seen casually, or more likely a "Viewed once" on the teleport. Good chances of error now. These categories are arbitrary, so they are up to the DM. So, at least a few minutes of studying throught the scry are necessary to get a good teleport chance. This leaves open a greater chance for detection/preperation.

Also, the spell dictates that "The character must have some clear idea of the location and layoutt of the destination." Just scrying in on someone in their hideout, doesn't mean you can discern well enough where the hideout is located, unless he goes outside.

This is all up to the DM, but any smart DM will quash this tactic, and make it (rightfully so) difficult and time consuming to use.