Buff, Scry, Teleport... A problem or not?

[Joshua Randall]

JERandall, why do you feel that scry-teleport thwarts location based encounters.

If by that statement you mean it thwarts the sort of encounters that one tends to stumble into by having to walk/ride across the country-side to get from place to place....well, good!

More time for politics, intrigue, and, well, roleplaying Less time wandering through the countryside hitting random encounters.

Whether or not you have time for politics, intrigue, and roleplaying is independent of your means of travel. There can be plenty of politics and intrigue involved in cross-country journeys. Maybe one of those encounters you stumble into is a plot hook to be followed up upon later. Or not followed up upon, in which case it also has ramifications.

However, your classic D&D adventure is something like: party finds location with treasure and evil creatures guarding it; party hacks through progressively tougher minions; party eventually overcomes fiendish traps and confronts evil boss creature; party kills evil boss creature and loots the hoard.

I think a clever party could simplify this: party uses divination and scrying magic to locate evil boss creature and hoard; party buffs up and teleports in; party slaughters surprised boss creature.

This can be a fine way to play as long as the players enjoy it and the DM can make it challenging and fun.

But, I think it does run counter to the classic D&D dungeon-crawl. That's what I meant by thwarting location-based encounters.

Edited to clarify my opinion and to remove a typo.

 

[Spatula]

I know, I know. All the party has to do is encounter the BBEG once, and any Wiz (or whatever) with at least a decent Scrying skill would be able to find him again.

It's even easier than that - from the Scry DCs that you posted:

Secondhand (the character has heard of the subject) 15

All you need is to have heard of the target... I can't really think of when you'd ever use the "None" DC, unless you're trying to scry a purely arbitrary person.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I can't really think of when you'd ever use the "None" DC, unless you're trying to scry a purely arbitrary person.

You didn't catch last week's episode of the spinoff series, CSI: Greyhawk, then?

"What've we got?"
"Vic's a female, half-elven, mid-to-late-forties; looks like she was raped and killed right here in the alley, single stab wound to the chest. No lingering auras on the Detect Magic."
"Witnesses?"
"Guards picked up that guy asleep in a doorway down the alley a bit - beggar, by the looks. Claims he didn't see anything."
"They never do... okay, grab the rape kit, check for fluids; and see if there's any skin under her fingernails. If our guy left anything behind, we may be able to scry him. Was she carrying a holy symbol of any sort?"
"Yeah, but you won't like it... black-and-white mask."
"It's not our job to approve of the victims... we're just here to find the criminals. See if we can get Brother Aaron from the Temple of Olidammara down here - he might be able to Speak with one of his own. And let's run a Detect Thoughts on that beggar..."

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Edit: Double Post.

-Hyp.

 

[Metalsmith]

I didn't realize I would recieve such a vehement, and utterly ridiculous reply.

You obviously haven't thought about the situation at all. Here are examples to back my position. With our current system of laws do we endorse assassination? No. Do we endorse vigilantism? No. Even when they seem utterly and completely warrented, it is still illegal to assassinate someone. If someone were to approach the police and say they had shot the 'serial killer of the era' would they be given a medal? Heck no, they would be thrown in jail and prosecuted.

I see the game you are playing now, it's called Payrolls and Paychecks. You want the room 3 doors down on the left. This is a Fantasy Setting. With enough cash you can buy a knighthood, and dispense High, Low and Medium? Justice pretty much at whim.

Hey who put the Real World in my Peanut Butter?! Who put Peanut Butter in my Real World?!
or something like that.....

Who gives you the right to pronounce someone a 'bad guy' without witnessing their actions, or giving them a fair trial?

The same right you have to puch the other guy after he punches you. It's all a matter of scale. If you Puch me I Punch back. If you Stab me, then you just lost your Breathing Rights. If you stab someone else and I take offense to it, you may also have lost your Breathing Rights. If you Cheat on your Taxes, and I dont like you, I may rat you out, then again, its kinda petty so who cares. If I see you kick a dog, I prolly won't even cross the street to talk to you. It's kind of a Sliding Scale.

Seems like you are putting the Cart in front of the Horse. When the "Bad Guy" doesn't do anything to you, then he wasn't labled the bad guy in the first place. You didn't even know about him! Of course there's always the story of the Evil Person living in that old abandoned Mine Shaft the farmers may tell you about. Maybey you aught to stop by and say "Hi". See if he needs anything offer to help. If nothings going on, stay near town for a few days just to make shure.

You are also forgetting a few things. We're talking about Buffing, Scrying and Teleport. If you have these spells you also have Detect Evil, Augury, Commune, Discen Lies, and Divination. You can tell the "Bad Guys" who're in need of the time and effort that justifies a visit from the Death Fairy, from the "Not So Bad Guys" who just need a little encouragement or help.

And by what you wrote, it seems you are still playing the black and white 'good guy' 'bad guy' dnd that so many of us left behind. If you want to make it that concrete, fine. Personally I like to add a little...make that a lot of depth to my games.

(Reading, taking note of the backhanded insult about depth, no sweat, he doesn't mean me)

Actions that may be justified still don't make them ethically correct. If you want to play a character without ethics, fine...I would say you are embracing societal chaos ( i.e. chaotic ). If you want to play a character with ethics then such a character would seriously think twice about stabbing the black and white 'bad guy' while he is in the privy. Frankly its unprofessional. How can you call yourself a combatant/adventurer/archmage or whatever when all you have really become is a glorified assassin. And where do you draw the line about which 'bad guy's' throat you are going to cut in their sleep? This guy killed and robbed a merchant, does this mean hes dead? This guy robbed a tavern does he get the strike team gack? This guy cheated on his taxes, does he get it? Children who might have skipped school that day will tremble in their sleep thinking the self justified strike team is scrying on them right now.

(2nd time he's asked the same question, wasted a whole paragraph doing so, notes Dissenter thinks that slaying evil is a profession with specific rules to follow, also notes that he has forgotten there are 8 other alignments than LG)

Even without the ethical dilemia of becoming the judge jury and executioner, it is still about fair play, and what is considered professional. Lawful characters would presumably fight with some kind of code of honor, whatever that might be. The same guy who would let a disarmed opponent pick up his sword is the same guy who would recoil in horror at the mages mention of the buffscrytel attack. Apparently you have never heard of the term honor before, so this is probably not making any sense to you.

(talking down to me again, backhanded insult about not understanding honor, noting Dissenters erroneous assumption that everyone plays the same LG character who would do those silly things)

That aside, its also about opening pandoras box. If this becomes common practice your PC's should be dead within 3-4 buffscrytels. Every 'bad guy' on the face of the planet will fear the strike teams imminent arrival, find the nearest wizard and buffscrytel gack you in the shower. However I would bet that you are playing the type of dnd where the PC's never take off their clothes, and even go to public functions armed and armored.
simple ethics 101.

(realizing Dissenter forgets Dectect Law/Chaos/Good/Evil are 1st level spells, again he forgets about the other 8 alignments, another poorly aimed insult this time of what type of DnD I'm playing)

Wow! What a Immensely Huge Straw Man. That must have taken you hours to construct.
You seem to think that every one is playing using the same Campaign Setting you are using. One where every major Govt is Lawful Good Anal. You are leaving out a startling number of valid settings. The Crusades, The Wild West, The New World, The Undiscovered Country, The Explorers of the Ancient Ruins, the list goes on and on.

If you ever find yourself looking for something more, try throwing some real life issues into your game.

Gee thanks But I'm already playing payrolls and Paychecks It's kinda boring. Things are looking up though, in a few Weeks I'm going to use my +30 Voting skill. Wish me Luck.

If you get tired of playing you might want to try AD&D. I wish you Luck.

Metalsmith

 

[Inez Hull]

Originally posted by Plane Sailing:

One idea I'm toying with is having all spells expire during a teleport.

Seems a pretty elegant solution to me, as would the disorientation upon teleportation. The other thing to consider if B/S/T is a standard PC tactic is: are they the first people to think of it? Unlikely. Most high level NPC's will be aware of the tactic and have contingincies (both magical and mundane) to deal with it. If all the casting times for the spells are played out correctly the PC's might find a nasty surprise waiting for them when they teleport in.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Here's a solution that will take care of the problem:

• Villain finds active Volcano.
• Villain casts permanent illusion on lava bed of active volcano to make it appear as a meadow of sunflowers and grass.
• Villain casts False Vision. Now when he is scried, he isn't seen, and the heros see the villain having a nice picnic in the middle of a meadow.
• Heros teleport in, fall through illusionary meadow, expire painfully in active volcano.

 

[Petrosian]

The biggest issue with the buf-scry-pop-in stuff is the notion of UNPREPARED enemies.

In a game where these things are possible to characters of level enough to be a threat, then it make ssense that it would be common practice to prepare against them.

TELEPORT

Against teleport we have forbiddance spells in the PHB, Zone of respite spells in the Manual of the planes, and gobs of good "construction defenses" in Stronghold Buildiers Guidebook.

Just because a given spell did not appear in the PHB, but rather was held for a sourcebook it was more suited for, does not mean it is rare, it is out of line or anything like that.

So, catching someone as they are waking up, should only really be an issue for those who are weak or stupid enough to expose themselves by being unprepared.

Your world should make sense, and that means your really powerful high level guys should not be sitting around in their longjohns with their flaps down so that mid-level PCs threats would have killed them long ago.

Why wouldn't a high level lich walk around with a ring of respite?

Also remember the weight limits on teleport since they might limit the insta-pop numbers.

SCRY

Even in the PHb there are spells which detect scrying, which give false info to scrying (iirc) and there should be plenty of options for this. perhaps this means a custom spell or even a custom item, but then, powerful guys are known for not being off the shelf types.

Also, with scrying taking an hour for a few minutes of view, catching the right time might be a little tricky. With detect scry, after one bad time, the bad guys may well be coming after you.

BUFFING

By 12th level, with a good feat called extend, a lot of buffing spells will be in effect ALL DAY. Any spell which can last 24 hours will likely be thrown just before bed time, so that the next day you have all spells and the effects still ongoing. A contingency can get some of the "short terms" defenses up and running.

TACTICS

Finally, preparations for surprises should be based around getting away first and foremost. glyphs and traps should not be keyed to damaging the attacks but frustrating them. A glyph or trap which releases a fog cloud over the area is probably a good start. The miss chances as well as the inability to use targetted spells will give you an edge in getting away. Similarly, traps with dispels or walls of force are possibilities.

its unlikely the scry-teleport-buff boyz will be able to check for traps thru the scry, so that can be a real lifesaver.

 

[Spatzimaus]

If you're going to change Teleport to ruin buffs, might I suggest doing it this way:

Make Teleport take 5 minutes (50 rounds). It still casts as one action, you disappear immediately, you can still act immediately upon arrival at your target, but the actual time to get from point A to point B is five minutes. It FEELS instantaneous to those in transit (so no buffing during the trip), but 5 minutes are actually passing, so all those problematic 1 round/level spells (like, oh, MASS HASTE, Shield, Displacement...) won't make it to the other end, even if you Extend them a few times. Long-term stuff, however, will get through just fine.

It also lets you use spells/powers like Divert Teleport and Trace Teleport more effectively.

This was originally proposed as a way to keep Dimension Door good; too many people were just using Teleport in combat instead to get around the disorientation time.

 

[Dissenter]

Quote from metalsmith
(2nd time he's asked the same question, wasted a whole paragraph doing so, notes Dissenter thinks that slaying evil is a profession with specific rules to follow, also notes that he has forgotten there are 8 other alignments than LG)

No actually the first question is what gives you the right to decide who is evil.
The second question is now that you have decided that a person is evil where do you draw the line as to which evil guy you are going to kill.

Quote from Metalsmith
The same right you have to puch the other guy after he punches you. It's all a matter of scale. If you Puch me I Punch back. If you Stab me, then you just lost your Breathing Rights. If you stab someone else and I take offense to it, you may also have lost your Breathing Rights.

that is my one of my points right there. You are now not only the judge, jury and executioner, but also the police who rounds the guy up, and the 911 person who decides which calls he will and which calls he won't take. How many roles can a guy take on before he becomes a little too involved to make an objective decision regarding someones death.

Quote from Metalguy
You are also forgetting a few things. We're talking about Buffing, Scrying and Teleport. If you have these spells you also have Detect Evil, Augury, Commune, Discen Lies, and Divination. You can tell the "Bad Guys" who're in need of the time and effort that justifies a visit from the Death Fairy, from the "Not So Bad Guys" who just need a little encouragement or help.

Detection spells wouldn't do crap in this case. Lets take a 20th level fighter who just so happens to be the most evil sonofa$%^&* around. Detect evil comes up moderate. Now take a cleric of an evil deity who really hasn't done anything truely despicable, but is just all around not a nice guy. Cheats on taxes, stabs his friends in the back, manipulates the system and steals from the donation box. If he happens to be above 4th, our detection shows him as strong! Which would indicate that he deserves the death fairy far more than the murdering raping, child stealing fighter. What are augury and divination going to do for you? 'are we going to do well when we teleport in and slit this guys throat?' answer 'no, he wears a coif to bed'. ( a little levity there ) Even if you ask ' does this guy deserve death ' No DM worth his salt should say yes or no. Commune is your best shot, but even the answers from that are going to be biased to whatever alignment your god happens to be.

Metalsmith
(talking down to me again, backhanded insult about not understanding honor, noting Dissenters erroneous assumption that everyone plays the same LG character who would do those silly things)

If you look back and reread your first response, you might notice the reason for the talking down. Call someone silly, and they might take offense. Anyway, it is true that I am taking the position of the LG character ( the pandoras box situation is something all alignments must consider ). You suggested that it would be silly to make this type of thing illegal. Now that you are defending the other alignments ( by indicating I had 'forgotten' about them ), I take it you agree that a LG character would have a problem with this? My original post was merely to indicate that a paladin or cleric of a lawful good god would have problems with this.

Quote from Metalsmith
(realizing Dissenter forgets Dectect Law/Chaos/Good/Evil are 1st level spells, again he forgets about the other 8 alignments, another poorly aimed insult this time of what type of DnD I'm playing)

Please explain how this relates to the pandoras box situation...I don't see how it does, and its position in your response confuses me.

Lastly let me put us on some common ground. I play plenty of characters who have no ethical dilemas with this at all. Most of them have the intelligence to realize that 'if I do this, what is to stop the bad guys from doing this?' and shy away from it. Also, I think that it is fairly safe to execute demons, devils, hags and other evil outsiders this way. Heck, they shouldn't even be on this plane to begin with so kicking them off is no big deal ( most of them don't really die anyway ). The problem comes into play when it is about humans ( or elves or dwarves etc. but not gnomes, gnomes should be kos ) Killing people should always make a good character pause and consider their actions. Assassinating them should make them sick to their stomach. If your character is evil, or even neutral then heck have a hay day until your opponents slit your throat while you sleep.