Buff, Scry, Teleport... A problem or not?

[Asmo]

Scry, Teleport -> Buffy . Sounds very nice.
Asmo

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

As crystal balls work like scrying, and scrying only works on creatures, this implies that the term "object" for this spell must include creatures - otherwise its description makes no sense.

The thing there is that Scry is not the only spell that locates things other than creatures. Locate Object and Clairvoyance are two that come to mind. Locate Object can pinpoint an object, and Clairvoyance can scry on a location rather than on a person.

Obscure Object would be handy to keep someone from Locating Object (in fact I'm pretty certain that Obscure Object is the 3e equivalent of a reversed Locate Object).

Interesting question: What happens if you Scry on a person who is carrying an Obscured Object? I've always ruled that it is visible as it is not the target of the spell. Otherwise it would have to be functionally invisible.

 

[Nail]

It's also worth noting that the PHB specifically states on page 150 that "object" spells are not necessarily limited to objects - they may be able to affect creatures.

Huh. I'm fairly confident that's not applicable here.

Anyway, here's Obscure Object, from the SRD:

Obscure Object

Abjuration
Level: Brd 2, Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One object touched of up to 100 lb./level
Duration: 8 hours
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

This spell hides an object from location by a spell, a crystal ball, and other forms of scrying.

Seems like someone could come up with a version that works only for creatures. Just exchange the word Object" for "Creatures" Voila! Done.

In fact, seems like the higher level versions of anti-scry magic is kinda whimpy, in comparison to this second level spell.

The fact that there is not such a spell, probably points to the fact that BST was not used by players during the play-testing phase of 3e.

Bad play-testers, bad! <smacks with rolled-up newspaper>

Re: Scrying person in possession of an obscured object.
Seems pretty clear the Scry spell wouldn't see the object, no? In this case, scry is a spell which would locate (albeit indirectly) the object. The Obscure Object spell specifically prohibits this.

Bad DM, bad! <smacks with rolled-up newspaper>

 

[Capellan]

Huh. I'm fairly confident that's not applicable here.

Can I ask why? No, really - I'm interested. Because my logic looks sound, to me, and I'm not sure why you disagree.

Obscure Object specifically states it offers protection from a crystal ball. The item named is italicised in the PHB, and is therefore a reference to the specific magical item in the DMG.

The Crystal Ball description specifically states that it works like Scrying. Scrying is italicised - again it's a specific reference to the spell/item. Back to the PHB we go.

The spell Scrying specifically allows you only to locate a creature.

Therefore, to offer protection from a Crystal Ball (which works like Scrying, which only finds creatures), Obscure Object must be able to affect creatures.

Or at least, that's how it seems to me. Like I said, I could be missing something - but I need someone to tell me what that is, if I am

-------------------------------------

If the above seems too much like lawyering, then I suggest that the easiest approach to the whole situation is to simply push up the Scry DCs by a hefty margin, and/or add an expensive material component to all versions of the Scry spell.

Currently, a Wizard who has just become able to B-S-T (9th) can have 12 ranks in the Scry skill, plus Int, plus Skill Focus (if they really wanted to max out). That's pretty close to automatic success on any creature on this plane.

Even a minimal 4 ranks + Int is good enough to automatically find anyone you have some kind of link to, if the DM allows you to take 10. It's far too easy.

I'd suggest a flat increase of all the DCs, plus adding ways for characters to increase this even more (a la Monte Cook's Static Veil spell). This limits the B-S-T approach to two situations:

- very powerful casters with lots of ranks in Scry (unlike now, where any joker can do it); or
- targets whom the caster has thoroughly researched by other means already

I particularly like the latter part of this option, since it means that organised, inventive PCs will be able to track down the things they need to do a B-S-T ... but they have to put a decent effort in first, not just memorise the appropriate spells ... and will also be able to give themselves a measure of defence against such attacks by spreading disinformation about themselves.

Because the way things currently are, if I were a BBEG, I'd have a unit of B-S-T specialists that went out every night and smacked down the latest set of adventurers that seemed to be making a name for themselves. And getting wiped out every time you reached 6th-7th level would make for boring campaigns

Though there's an idea for a campaign there: a world where any kind of heroes get brutally murdered as soon as they make a name for themselves. A world where there is no hope - unless the next group of heroes can be smart enough to avoid drawing attention. Enter the PCs ...

If they are warned going in of the BBEG's B-S-T approach, and thet know they have to protect themselves against it at all times, it could create an interesting 'feel' for a campaign.

 

[Happy Monkey]

One issue that I have always been annoyed with is fighter redundency, that is the higher the level the greater the spare wheel they are due to complex combos that the spell users can do.

How many BBEGs are non-spell users.

My issue with BST is that it is a tactic that requires constant vigilance by all and further reinforces spellcaster dominance.

I still don't have any concrete solutions but i am considering:

1) Scry DCs are too low, up them by 5 or 10. This will only delay the tactic however and it may not even do that...

2) Teleport difficulty being strictly enforced. Studied carefully is just that, a particular place that the caster is very familiar with. Essentially it would require hours of being studied if not familiar. Again this solution would hinder BST, you would need to familiarise yourself with a nearby ? to avoid sensor detection. However teleport without error at level 13 would again largely get around this?

3) Scry and teleport resistant areas. Yep, this is my initial solution and what I've been building up to. Spend $$ to make an area resistant to scrying or dimensional travel or $$$$ for both. I like this because areas important need to be warded, all classes have access to $ but the cost of construction prohibits this from widespread use. Building on this concept, the building could be imbued with spell resistance to resist some magics. Clever attacker spell use and high $ would however make this useless and wasteful if not properly defended.

Coming up with a reasonable price would then be the devil, the hallow and forbidance spells would be the place to start. I am thinking more due to it being undispellble (such a word?). Also what the cost actually is, method of construction, materials, time, labour?

I do not have such a problem with BST, just that it requires a bit more skill and such an invasive attack has a defence that is open to rogues and fighters.

 

[incognito]

fun with B/S/T

Those crazy Psions!

Can't they use "trace teleport?" to find where an offending pary came from. And the Teleport trigger to get vunerable PCs out of a situation.

And the Wisdom guys can block scrying, detecct scrying

The CON, or STR guys can use Dim Anchor!

SO all high level parties need a higher level Psion...