Build a better Bard

[Herzog]

I've had some trouble in the past playing a Bard and actually accomplishing anything.

This has led me to ponder the following:
Suppose you have heard about the fluff surrounding the Bard Class, but the mechanics of the Bard class weren't actually available.

How would you go about building a character that:
1. Has the power to influence people, both offensive and defensive.
2. Has a vast store of knowledge to tap in to.
3. Can both fight, cast spells, and is skillfull.

Every official 3.5 book allowed, except for the Bard class itself

(NB: I tried searching the board and the web for earlier discussions, but came up empty. Any references to discussions that are similar to this are appreciated as well)

 

[Empirate]

Were your trial runs of Bards in the past at all optimized, or were you just trying to have a little carefree fun? Bards can be totally underwhelming if limited to Core only, or if you simply don't play to their strengths. But it's also possible to build very powerful and extremely versatile characters on a Bard base.
I've always held that, in Core only games, Bards are probably one of the weaker classes (tier 4 maybe). But with the addition of those tons of support material they received in splat, Bards can become anything they want (and can get up to tier 2).
Bards have several things you can stress in your builds: Bardic Music, spellcasting, and sheer combat muscle (includes Inspire Courage optimization and spell buffing). Each individual bard build can probably take two of those and turn them up to eleven, but not all three.
For example, I love Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 6/Fatespinner 4 for the spellcasting/music variant, using feats like Lyric Spell and Doomspeak to convert music uses into other effects. Dandu once showed up here with a very powerful melee bard build, maybe he'll post it again?


On to your actual question: It's very hard to simulate Bards using other classes. Not only is the versatility hard to match, they also have quite a few unique points to them.

Bardic Music is totally unique - other classes (rarely) grant it, but in the end, it's still Bardic Music, and not using the Bard class doesn't make your character less bardy if you have the music!

The Bard spell list also contains some great unique spells: Glibness comes to mind immediately. Apart from unique spells, the whole set is great, and includes some lower-level versions of very good Sor/Wiz spells, as well as curing and miscellaneous goodies. Bards also cast arcane spells in light armor, which is unique in Core at least.

Bardic Knowledge is OK at best, it won't define your character. Lots of real Knowledge skills will do a better job, as will divination spells. Archivists have a similar ability and can put it to much better use. Cloistered Clerics also have the knowledge thing, and lots of PrCs grant it, as well.

The Bard's skill list and amount of SP is good, but not overwhelming, and can easily be duplicated with lots of other classes (Rogue, Beguiler, Spellthief, Cloistered Cleric, even Ranger to a degree), not to speak of PrCs.

 

[DumbPaladin]

I think you actually can start with the base class of Bard, and just add significantly. Discarding it entirely makes the bard pretty much disappear, because as pointed out, no one else gets anything like bardic music.

If I HAD to use nothing but Bard, I'd start with the Factotum, and add in the Loremaster PrC's Lore ability for Bardic knowledge, but this is a pale comparison to the bard's ability to influence people.

If we can simply start with the base bard and fix the class, I'd recommend looking at adding some of the PrCs for bard and making the abilities basic abilities.

-- Let bards cast spells while maintaining their bardic music.
-- Make the bard spell list more useful, especially with abjurations, some evocations, combat buffs, and curses.
-- Give the bard an ability to infuse their weapons with sonic energy while performing bardic music, allowing them to do more damage than they would normally if they get into actual melee/ranged combat.
-- Weapon finesse & maybe your choice of Skill Focus in any CHA-based skill as free feats?
-- Add bardic knack back to the class.
-- Give the bard a song of healing as a basic ability that can heal all allies within a X' burst for a decent amount, but nothing that will trample the cleric's role as party healer.
-- Greatly accelerate the bard spell level acquisition. I'd say make it similar to the sorcerer's ... so bards would get 2nd level spells at 4th, and 6th at 12th, maybe push it to 14th or 15th for 6th, but getting 3rd level and 4th level spells as late as the bard does is NOT helpful.

 

[Sander_Kaa]

I'm currently playing a Rogue2/Bard7 (aiming for Rogue2/Bard7/Druid1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10) and I love it. Normally I like to powergame quite much (have played the gnome shadow illusionist, wizard conjurer specialist etc) but I need to to say: I Like my character very much.

1. Has the power to influence people, both offensive and defensive:
Suggestion (from Bard), Diplomacy, Charm person/ monster and Inspire Courage +6 (maxed by using a masterwork lute (Complete Scoundrel), Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium), Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium) and Words of Creation (Exalted Deeds)).


2. Has a vast store of knowledge to tap in to.
Bardic Knowledge. I'v maxed Tumble and Use Magic Device (to use my increasing collection of cheap wands like lesser vigor, grease etc) but it's also possible to max. out knowledges. Picking Nymph's Kiss and Able Learner helps also. Make sure you take rogue first to receive tons of skills.

3. Can both fight, cast spells, and is skillfull.
Fighting: Yep (remember Inspire Courage works on yourself too). Using alter self my AC is even higher than some of the melee folk! (using a magical chain shirt and buckler). Casting spells is at the moment somewhat whimpy. Although: pick your spells wisely (invisibility, glitterdust, alter self)! Saves are also not too bad except fortitude. I even have evasion.

At the moment Fochlucan Lyrist levels kick in my druid spellcasting, bard spellcasting, combat (full BAB!) and inspire courage improves. Not bad at all!

For a cheese-topping take the Leadership feat (I did) and create a cohort.

Have fun!

 

[Eman Resu]

You say you want powerfull (full spellcaster), 3/4 BAB, broad range of spells, ability to influence the party several ways all good, have lore in your blood a vast reservior of info/lore, but you dont care for the guitar strumming lyrist mechanic....Archivist! Is the answer, or a very good fit to what you have asked for!

Look into the class found in the Heroes of Horror, or on line I think Ive seen it or a lot of it, I even found some info on the wizards.com site.

good luck eman resu