D&D 5E Building a better Paladin

[Gladius Legis]

As I, and others have said, we feel the smite can overshadow other PCs

You "feel"? Meanwhile I showed the opposite with actual numbers. If you have different numbers, please, post them.

and/or cause a behavior with paladin players to be a detriment to the other party members (by encouraging smite when other spells available to a paladin might be better, depending on the situation).

So you're doubling down on blaming the class for the behavior of the player, if I get you right.

While I would entirely blame the player for not taking advantage of the class' tools in the right situation.

"MOAR DPR =/= better." You can disagree all you want, but try to keep your one true waysim at the door, thanks.

Ah. The dog whistle use of "DPR." Not to mention quite the strawman.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Even in the context of just the paladin class, limitations don't make it worse.

Yes, actually, they do. No matter how much you want to weasel out of that fact with semantics.

Some thematic limitations on the smite ability would return a good deal of flavor which had been removed from the class, and I would argue that it's easily better than the boring version that's currently in the book.

I know you're a 3.5 fan, where the Paladin was mechanically inept in 99% of all situations and only marginally effective when it could actually use Smite Evil. But "flavor," lol.

This is 5e. Different edition entirely. I much like my Paladin effective and in a wide range of situations.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Yes, actually, they do. No matter how much you want to weasel out of that fact with semantics.

If this thread was about making paladins more powerful, then that would have been specified. This is a thread about improving paladins, and making them better. Better is not synonymous with more powerful, no matter how much you want to weasel out of that fact with semantics.

I know you're a 3.5 fan, where the Paladin was mechanically inept in 99% of all situations and only marginally effective when it could actually use Smite Evil. But "flavor," lol.

This is 5e. Different edition entirely. I much like my Paladin effective and in a wide range of situations.

I'm glad you admit that opinions are subjective, and not everyone agrees with you on what counts as an improvement.

 

[steeldragons]

As a general complaint about the ubiquitous spell-use of 5e, and desire to do away with it...

...the Paladin should be restructured after he Eldritch Knight as a Divine/clerical 1/3rd caster class.

Smites, Turning Undead, and conjuration of your magic horsey all reliant on Channelling Divinity.

Divine Sense, Divine Health, and Lay on Hands can be standard/regular class features.

The class -like clerics, druids, monks, and I might propose even warlocks- should be held accountable to their Alignment.

Paladins should be required to be, at least, Lawful. Dedication, devotion, a disciplined and structured world view, and high standard of morals and ethics being essential to their pursuit of and loyalty to the "perfection" of their being/cause/deity/oath (whatever flavor fluff you like). How one chooses to use that dedication/devotion (I, personally, limit it to Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral PCs) is up to the player...and allows for the story possibility to "fall" and remain a Paladin, turning toward evil in one's dedication and devotion if your DM allows such things (I would/do not permit -Evil PCs- in my games)...which I suppose would make one a Blackguard (a.k.a. an "Oathbreaker").

 

[Gladius Legis]

I'm glad you admit that opinions are subjective, and not everyone agrees with you on what counts as an improvement.

I'm glad you admit you want the Paladin to suck. This isn't the right thread for it, though.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Whatever dude. You're clearing intent on arguing as vitriolic as you can with anyone in this thread that disagrees with you, while refusing to even acknowledge how other people view different parts of the game differently than you. Shine on; not worth my time.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I like the transfigurational aspect of the capstone abilities, but it would be nice to get a little more transfigurational earlier in the progression (especially if your goal was to play a warden using oath of ancients paladin). Maybe something at 10th level, so it can be hit around the time that a lot of games are finishing.

 

[Satyrn]

I'd make the paladin better by rebranding it as a warlord.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I'm glad you admit you want the Paladin to suck. This isn't the right thread for it, though.

I want the paladin to be awesome! As awesome as every other class!

The first step to making the paladin awesome is to ditch the wonky mechanics, like how smite is currently implemented (and especially how the smite spells interact poorly with concentration), and replace those with more streamlined versions that are easier to use. First I propose that smite become its own action, allowing the paladin to make a single weapon attack with a massive damage bonus, instead of it being a rider that you add on to attacks after-the-fact. Make that damage bonus as large as it can possibly be, before it starts messing with class balance.

I don't know why you want the paladin to be terrible, with its weird resource-management and problematic action-declaration. This isn't the right thread for it, though.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Whatever dude. You're clearing intent on arguing as vitriolic as you can with anyone in this thread that disagrees with you, while refusing to even acknowledge how other people view different parts of the game differently than you. Shine on; not worth my time.

Well, excuse me for being sick and tired of a topic that pretty much gets a new thread started every week on this very forum. I've made a conscientious effort to avoid it lately, but when you bring it into a thread I actually might be interested in, you expect me to take it in silence?

It's the 4e Nerf the Ranger/Twin Strike thing all over again. It was silly then, and it's silly now.