It is not silly. The paladin is OP, especially with certain builds such as great weapon master. Wizard spells get hit with the nerf stick in every edition and this is about the weakest their spells have been in any edition. But its ok when "other" class get taken down a peg as long as its not your favorite class. Whatever
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D&D 5E Building a better Paladin
- Thread starter Paul Smart
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It is not silly. The paladin is OP, especially with certain builds such as great weapon master. Wizard spells get hit with the nerf stick in every edition and this is about the weakest their spells have been in any edition. But its ok when "other" class get taken down a peg as long as its not your favorite class. Whatever
steeldragons
Steeliest of the dragons
I think everyone agrees that Divine Smite is something a Paladin should do/get. It's just a matter of how (mechanically it is incorporated) and how often.
I think of it this way...and it boils down to making things make sense and seem "fair" to me (I won't get into a mathematical "balance" debate as that way lies madness)...
Fighters: The "best at fighting," hit more often and do more damage. Every other class flows from there.
Barbarians: Hit harder, not necessarily as often. But generally speaking, they are doing more [consistent] damage.
Rangers: Hit more often and do more damage...only against certain/specific foes, but at any time.
Paladins: Hit more often and do more damage...against anyone, but only at certain [number of] times.
Were there some "knight" or "cavalier" class all its own, I would say their built-in "fighting shtick" would be to hit more often, all of the time -and thus do more damage/keep in line with DPR expectations by hitting more often, but not have a specifically "damage-boosting" feature.
I think of it this way...and it boils down to making things make sense and seem "fair" to me (I won't get into a mathematical "balance" debate as that way lies madness)...
Fighters: The "best at fighting," hit more often and do more damage. Every other class flows from there.
Barbarians: Hit harder, not necessarily as often. But generally speaking, they are doing more [consistent] damage.
Rangers: Hit more often and do more damage...only against certain/specific foes, but at any time.
Paladins: Hit more often and do more damage...against anyone, but only at certain [number of] times.
Were there some "knight" or "cavalier" class all its own, I would say their built-in "fighting shtick" would be to hit more often, all of the time -and thus do more damage/keep in line with DPR expectations by hitting more often, but not have a specifically "damage-boosting" feature.
Gladius Legis
Legend
Prove it. With something else other than flimsy anecdotal evidence.
Great Weapon Master only adds a potential +20 to a Paladin's typical turn. Maybe +30 with a bonus action attack.
That same feat, OTOH, adds at least +40 (+50 with bonus action) to a Fighter's potential damage on Action Surge rounds Lv. 5-10. And +60 (+70 with bonus action) at 11+. Now I tend to agree GWM is overpowered, but the Paladin isn't the poster boy for that. The Fighter is.
Yeah, I'm finding it very hard to feel sorry for the 5e Wizard. They still have legit win-button spells through their careers. Sleep at 1st level, Web at 2nd level, Hypnotic Pattern and Fear at 3rd level (and good old Fireball vs. hordes), Wall of Force at 5th level, Forcecage at 7th level, Wish -> Simulacrum at 9th level ... yeah, nope, no tears for the Wizard here.
3e Wizard was a legit God-tier class, alongside the Cleric and Druid (CoDzilla). It did need to be taken down. It literally made every other class in the game (again aside from CoDzilla) useless in comparison. The 5e Wizard obviously doesn't do that, but even with being a shadow of its 3e self is still among this edition's strongest classes.
I'd say stronger than the Paladin still, in fact, just no longer outrageously so. In fact, I'd say the Wizard, Druid and Bard for sure are stronger classes than the Paladin in 5e. The Paladin is probably in the tier right under. A solid, strong class, but not utterly dominant, has distinct weaknesses and doesn't obsolete anyone else.
Which is why I find it mind-boggling that people want to single out the Paladin as OP. Is it because you all were used to how utterly useless and inept the class was in 3e and 4e?
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No, wizard spells have gotten nerfed in every edition. In this edition there is not much point to be an enchanter because everyone figures out real quick that you just used magic on them which is incredibly stupid. It may make sense if you used magic to completely make someone do something against his nature but the restrictions on friends and charm person are completely ridiculous. Force cage is easily beaten and is only once per day. Being able to break the mold by smiting twice per round is completely OP. Sorcerers can only do it by selecting a special power and wasting their spell points to do it to cast a weak cantrip. It does not even come close to the paladin smite and paladins do that all the time.
3E wizards were powerful but we are not talking about 3E. Paladins were weak in 3E but overpowered in Pathfinder & now 5E. There is not much reason for a paladin to cast spells compared to smiting. Its a huge 5E flaw that favors offense over everything else. The paladin is the most glaring example but cleric falls into the same problem. I complained to my friend playing the paladin that if he didn't help with the healing somewhat I was going to play my cleric in the exact same mold as his paladin. Why should I heal for 1D8+5 on a cure wounds when I could inflict wounds for 3D10? Its a better use of my resources too! He got my point and stopped trying to hog the limelight every time by smiting every round on every combat.
Great weapon master is a huge problem in a lot of games. My players complained it was a nothing burger until they started DM'ing. Afterwards everyone agreed it should be removed after our parties had 3 GW variant humans beating down 1rst level monsters as if they were nothing. The paladin really brought this problem into the forefront as soon as crits equaled 6D6+14+4D8 because the paladin called out smite after a crit. Their ability to save smites to go off on crits or just after plain hits is extremely OP! No one else gets that carebear type of resource management like they do
Gladius Legis
Legend
And yet many of them are still very effective despite getting nerfed.
You cherry-picked two Enchantment spells, the only two in fact that explicitly state the target knows they were charmed, to make a flimsy point. And even Friends and Charm Person have workarounds. Like a disguise kit or Disguise Person spell.
Suggestion at 2nd level poo-poos your point alone.
Haha, what?
Again, prove it. I want numbers, and I want comparisons to other abilties whose sole purpose is doing damage. If you can't provide those, then this isn't a claim you should be making.
I wasn't under the impression Sorcerers were supposed to be one of those classes that could top the Paladin's single-target damage. I'm pretty sure I could come up with a way that it does, though.
I know the Fighter is supposed to be able to, and guess what? It does. Handily.
You're definitely wrong there. Bless, Command, Wrathful Smite, Find Steed, Aid, Aura of Vitality, Revivify ... all good spells and all at times more useful than that SO OVERPOWERED Divine Smite.
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Gladius Legis
Legend
No, saving Smites for crits is extremely *overrated.* If you get a crit in the first couple of rounds when the enemy numbers are strongest, then great. If you get it in the later rounds when the enemy numbers have been thinned, then it's kind of a waste to use the Smite on that crit. You were going to finish them off anyway.
Especially if a second wave of enemies comes in after those later rounds, then you'll wish you didn't waste your Smite then.
Tony Vargas
Legend
Comes from comparing it to the fighter instead of to full casters...
If you're considering every edition, you're going to have a hard time explaining how, say, an 8d6 fireball you can cast spontaneously cast until you run out of 3+ level slots is 'nerfed,' compared to a 3d one that you can cast 1/day, if you specifically prepared it.
Obviously, every edition has nerfed some spells, usually the most notorious ones from the previous edition. But, casting also tends to face fewer restrictions with each rev roll, too..
...and, some spells gain in power, too.
Gladius Legis
Legend
But it's not really overpowered compared to the Fighter, either. The Fighter does more damage, as it should ...
And even if the Paladin did overpower the Fighter as it was, that would be a case for buffing the Fighter, not nerfing the Paladin.
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jodyjohnson
Adventurer
Assuming this is a 'How would/do you house rule the Paladin?' and not a 'What should the 6e Paladin look like?' thread:
1. Concentration is a concern for a lot of Melee-based classes so we house rule Concentration - Only roll Con saves when crit'ed or rolling a '1' for saving on a damaging spell. Buff for Ranger, Paladin, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, and the rest of the casting classes. (Also change the Save to a special Concentration Save/check - Casting Stat or Con plus Proficiency).
2. I don't think the Extra Attack classes benefit enough from 'bonus' attacks - so I'd add back the playtest machanic (and 4e) of increasing dice per attack as an option (a player can use Extra attacks or use double dice as an Attack Action and all other attacks outside of that do double dice, or more). Paladin is an Extra attack class so Bonus action attacks, reaction attacks, and other extra attacks outside of the Attack Action for Extra Attack are increased.
3. It feels like the Smite spells are not seen as viable options compared to Divine Smite. Reduce starting Smite to +1d8. I have 2 Smite Paladins of 5-6 characters at my regular store game so I don't do this - but if I had my druthers...
4. Remove the -5/+10 mechanic. Replaced with Add half strength bonus on heavy weapons for GWM. Replaced with bonus action Aim on ranged or thrown weapon attacks (+1d6). Only mentioned because of interactions with Bless.
1. Concentration is a concern for a lot of Melee-based classes so we house rule Concentration - Only roll Con saves when crit'ed or rolling a '1' for saving on a damaging spell. Buff for Ranger, Paladin, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, and the rest of the casting classes. (Also change the Save to a special Concentration Save/check - Casting Stat or Con plus Proficiency).
2. I don't think the Extra Attack classes benefit enough from 'bonus' attacks - so I'd add back the playtest machanic (and 4e) of increasing dice per attack as an option (a player can use Extra attacks or use double dice as an Attack Action and all other attacks outside of that do double dice, or more). Paladin is an Extra attack class so Bonus action attacks, reaction attacks, and other extra attacks outside of the Attack Action for Extra Attack are increased.
3. It feels like the Smite spells are not seen as viable options compared to Divine Smite. Reduce starting Smite to +1d8. I have 2 Smite Paladins of 5-6 characters at my regular store game so I don't do this - but if I had my druthers...
4. Remove the -5/+10 mechanic. Replaced with Add half strength bonus on heavy weapons for GWM. Replaced with bonus action Aim on ranged or thrown weapon attacks (+1d6). Only mentioned because of interactions with Bless.
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