Building a Better Tumble

[Yair]

I can see why you wouln't have many people take ranks in tumble...

I once played in a campaigns like that, where the GM doesn't like one skill or another and massively penalizes it. Strangely enough, people don't take those skills in that campaign.

Errrg, no. Nothing against Tumble, we just wanted it to be a tactical decision at ALL levels, and have a high level fighter be a risk to tumbling (or spellcasting for that matter), to make it a tradeoff. (Maybe we lowered the base too, to say 10+BAB or something like that, I can't remember off-hand. We played a lot with the formulas till we got it where we wanted it.)
Not having tumbling characters has to do with no one playing a monk or rouge - we tend to have a "direct approach" party. The player that does like playing monks did lots of tumbling, I assure you - it is just that he quit the group...

 

[Shallown]

We use the Tumble variant of DC 10 + Bab to get by some one and DC 20 + BAB to tumble through someone. Have used it for like 2+ years in two campaigns and it has proved the easiest and best variant for us. BAB is listed in most monster stats and NPC write ups. It makes for an easy to figure target number and not too much rolling and counter rolling. It makes you continue to improve the skill instead of just ignoring it when you get X number of points in it.

As an aside we did the same thing with casting defensively just adding BAB to the DC. makes you keep that concentration skill up.

Both have play tested well.

later

 

[Zoatebix]

Oooh. We might have a winner with post 12...

 

[pbd]

One idea that's been floating around in our group is to get of the Tumble skill, but then modify Mobility so that it allows Balance to be used to tumble (with easy tumbling rules). Currently, Tumble (a skill) is generally more effective Mobility at defeating AoO. This situation seems somewhat off. The very characters who thematically would have Mobility don't need it because Tumble replaces it.

Mobility is still useful, even with tumble. Remember the DC goes up for each opponent you tumble past. At some point, even with alot of ranks, you are may to have to face an AoO. At which point, a +4 to AC is nice.

Alos, there is a Tactical feat from CW called "Elusive Target" where, amoung other benefits, you can make a free trip attack (without the chance of being tripped yourself) against an opponent that fails an AoO against you. This could be used to good effect with the +4 AC for mobility.

Not cutting on ya', just pointing out some uses for the feat...

pbd

 

[comrade raoul]

My house system has Tumble providing an AC bonus against attacks of opportunity made while moving -- tumblers are always subject to attacks of opportunity, but they're potentially (much) harder to hit. (This also keeps the Mobility feat useful.)

Basically, prior to taking a move action, you declare that you're tumbling during it and specify the path you're going to take. You then make a Tumble check at a base DC of 12, which increases by +10 if you're going more than half your speed and by another +10 if you plan to go through an occupied square. (It's also subject to the usual environmental modifiers for bad terrain.) If you fail the check, you don't go anywhere and lose the move action. If you succeed, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC against any attacks of opportunity you provoke during your movement, with an additional +1 for every 2 points by which you beat the DC. (Thus, if my Tumble check is a 28 and I'm tumbling at half speed through clear terrain, I get a +9 dodge bonus against attacks of opportunity during my movie.)

If you're trying to tumble through an occupied square, you provoke a separate attack of opportunity from the occupant of that square just before you enter the square. If the attack hits and deals damage, your move ends immediately, in the square you were in just before you tried to move into the occupied one. Characters with reach weapons, who don't threaten adjacent squares, can still make the attack of opportunity with an unarmed strike if they choose. (Tiny characters, who just threaten the square they occupy, can make attacks of opportunity as normal.)

Basically, this approach seems to me like a happy medium between the PH system, which I think is too easy on tumblers, and the Monte Cook one, which seems excessively harsh. It also makes your actual AC continue to matter for your ability to avoid being damaged by attacks of opportunity, which seems plausible. Now, skilled tumblers who are already well-defended can greatly decrease the risk they face from attacks of opportunity, especially if they also have Mobility, but they can't eliminate it, especially from effective attackers.

 

[Jarrod]

There's also a big difference between Tumble and Mobility.

Tumble: bad guy doesn't get an AoO. So he still has it for your friend the fighter.
Mobility: bad guy takes his AoO and misses. So he doesn't have it any more.

I've always seen Tumble as "The ability to move without creating an opening." You move quickly enough that the bad guy doesn't get to react, or you were actually going a square farther... in either case, he _still has_ his AoO to smack your teammate.

Tumble is really very selfish

 

[iwatt]

Mobility is still useful, even with tumble. Remember the DC goes up for each opponent you tumble past. At some point, even with alot of ranks, you are may to have to face an AoO. At which point, a +4 to AC is nice.

Alos, there is a Tactical feat from CW called "Elusive Target" where, amoung other benefits, you can make a free trip attack (without the chance of being tripped yourself) against an opponent that fails an AoO against you. This could be used to good effect with the +4 AC for mobility.

Not cutting on ya', just pointing out some uses for the feat...

pbd

I use it when my character wants to perform a special maneuver (disarm, trip, sunder, etcc..) and he doesn't have the imp feats. Provoking the AoO through movement (using the fact that it's 20% less likely to hit) is a plus. Combine with improved mobility (?) from the duelist class (extra +4 to AC). and it get's pretty good.

 

[the Jester]

This thread just provoked me to write a new feat, Improved Mobility, which basically just adds another +4 dodge bonus to your AC vs. AoOs provoked by your movement.

 

[Zoatebix]

So does DC 10 + the BAB of your opponent seem like a good base-line? Add 10 to the DC to go full speed, and/or another 10 to go through an opponent's square? Add plus 2 to the DC for every opponent past the first, and all of the surface condidtion modifiers from the 3.5 PHB are as-is as well?

Under analysis, it looks pretty good:

With optimal conditions, no dex modifier, no special feats, and max ranks, you'd have better than even chances of tumbling past the first two fighters of equal level to your character, if you move at 1/2 speed. An 18 in dexterity, skill focus: tumble, acrobatic, and the synergy bonus from jump means you have even chances to move through a third fighter, or to tumble by a third fighter at full speed. That's not bad, considering the two feats you paid for it.

What do you all think?

Edit: The second set of example stats also mean that the character tumbles by 3 fighters with assured success if he moves at half his or her speed. Pretty powerful, but a similar build in the core rules could get by one fighter for free at 1st level, and one more at every odd level.

Hmmm... You could have a *lot* more than three people eligible to take attacks of opportunity against you in only 15 feet of movement, but such conditions are few and far between, right?

 

[GlassJaw]

I experimented with opposing your Tumble check with an opponent's Reflex save (with modifiers as applicable). I didn't playtest for too long but it seemed to work pretty well.

I reasoned that the tumbleE is trying to react to the tumbleR's movement. If he can react in time, he can make an AoO as normal. For very power creatures, their attack modifier increases more quickly than their Reflex save so it gives an advantage to the tumbleR. Unmodofied BAB might work too but their straight attack roll makes tumbling very difficult.