Building a Better Tumble

[Ryltar]

I experimented with opposing your Tumble check with an opponent's Reflex save (with modifiers as applicable). I didn't playtest for too long but it seemed to work pretty well.

That's what I'm using, too. Works out pretty well - those with a high tumble skill have an increased chance to succeed, but not vs. nimble opponents. Using BAB or attack rolls as opposing rolls seems too harsh to me.

 

[Zoatebix]

Whoa! The thread totally moved on while I was making my edit!

Here it is again:

"The second set of example stats also mean that the character tumbles by 3 fighters with assured success if he moves at half his or her speed. Pretty powerful, but a similar build in the core rules could get by one fighter for free at 1st level, and one more at every odd level.

"Hmmm... You could have a *lot* more than three people eligible to take attacks of opportunity against you in only 15 feet of movement, but such conditions are few and far between, right?"


BAB doesn't seem so harsh, really. It keeps the tactical decisions involved with tumbling interesting.

 

[Zoatebix]

Yet another thought:

The BAB model will break down at epic levels because of epic attack bonus is slower. Tumblers will start being able to do more relative to their competition, with the exception of monsters with +1 BAB per hit die. Is that okay?

Using reflex saves to oppose tumble, no the other hand, will keep the same character at Epic and non-epic levels. I just haven't analyzed exactly what that behavior is yet...

 

[Shallown]

We didn't play into the epic levels just up to 18th. We used it for 1st-18th level campaign and now in a 1-st-7th level campaign. In the present campaign we have adervish who test the tumble skill constantly. It may not be perfect but it is better than a static DC and simple enough to use.

I like simple to use. No added rolls or having to keep to much in mind. I have seen some varients of addingto armor class or using your tumble check versus thier attack roll as an AC. Only problem with thatin my mind is the giants who have over half their bonus to hit from strength in some cases it upsets the balance of a speedy tumble versus someones innate fighting skill.

BAB also works well cause it doesn't change. so it stays simple.

just my thoughts and experience.

later

 

[Tessarael]

Adding BAB to Tumble check DCs isn't going to work vs. high CR opponents, as BAB tends to scale faster than CR. i.e. The end result will be nerfing Tumble.

Mobility is a feat that helps movement in combat when in heavier armor. Tumble skill is a far better choice for lightly armored folks.

Overall, I don't like the fact that skills can directly affect combat. I think it would be better to do the following:

1. Remove Tumble affecting combat. (use Mobility instead if you want an AC bonus to avoid attacks of opportunity.)

2. Combine Balance with Tumble. (Balance is a weak and seldom used skill.)

3. Give Rogues the Mobility feat at an appropriate level (say 4th or 6th, or a bonus feat instead if they've already taken Mobility) to replace the use of Tumble in combat, and to give them some ability to move around in combat to flank for Sneak Attack.

I would also consider increasing the AC bonus from Mobility to +6 against attacks of opportunity caused by your movement.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Here's another possibility. Someone who knows there's a tumbler on the opposing side could Ready an action to intercept the tumbler.

In other words, it seems that part of what makes the Tumble skill so effective is that the only real impediment to it (in the rules as written) is the attack of opportunity. But, if someone in the chain of people Tumbled through (or around) can prepare for this person, then he should be able to get attacks in resulting from the Ready.

Also, for those of you who want to do away with Mobility (not on my advice, but I've noticed some want to), just replace Mobility in the prerequisite for Spring Attack with something like 5 ranks in Tumble.

Dave

 

[Zoatebix]

A bit of a bumb and some more information - Grim Tales sets tumble DC at the opponent's BAB+10 for moving through a threatened area and BAB+20 for moving through a space occupied by an opponent.

 

[the_bruiser]

We use the Tumble variant of DC 10 + Bab to get by some one and DC 20 + BAB to tumble through someone. Have used it for like 2+ years in two campaigns and it has proved the easiest and best variant for us. BAB is listed in most monster stats and NPC write ups. It makes for an easy to figure target number and not too much rolling and counter rolling. It makes you continue to improve the skill instead of just ignoring it when you get X number of points in it.

As an aside we did the same thing with casting defensively just adding BAB to the DC. makes you keep that concentration skill up.

Both have play tested well.

later

This is exactly how we play both rules. Not sure whether I got that rule on these boards, some book, made it up myself, or what, but I agree - in our experience, this is the best way to play both.

 

[apesamongus]

Why not split the difference? Start with the standard DC from 3.5 (maybe -5?) but have it give -1 to the attacker's BaB for every point you succeed by. If you reduce the BaB to 0, then no AoO.

That way, BaB has an effect and you still need to put ranks into tumble, but it's also still useful to try to tumble past very high BaB opponents - the best of both worlds.

You could also let Mobility add to the tumble roll instead of providing the normal bonus, but that might be a bit powerful (it's essentially +4 to Tumble since tumble isn't really used for much else.)

 

[Zoatebix]

Bump! I just want to see what more, if any, experiences there are out there with Shallown's/my/Grim Tales' version of the tumble skill.