Building a Better Tumble

[Primitive Screwhead]

Re-inventing wheels..

The one main reason to look at this wheel is that a Tumble Focused Character can stop expending resources {skill points} at 2nd level and remain completely effective at tumbling past *any* level of opponent.

Crazy Joe, fresh out of the Guild Training Hall slides past Grog, a Knight of the Silver Swords whose abilities on the battlefield with his {specialized and macigal} Bastard Sword are legendary. Combat Reflexes, Improved Init, Weapon Focus/Specialization.. all effectively nullified by 10 skill points {5 each in Jump and Tumble}

So, using 10+BAB means tumbling at CR equivilient encounters will be easy for Tumble Focused Characters. CR+4 encounters will be difficult. CR+8 will be dangerous.

Honestly, I have not had any issues with Tumble in my game.. yet. My player with the monk who was going to be the fastest thing moving in town sadly had his character left for dead in a deep cavern. My encounters tend towards the couple of bad guys instead of just one major NPC. The finale encounters are almost always a big bad guy and his mooks. The NPC's use the battlefield to thier advantage, and occasionally tumble past the front line fighters.
I am enjoying this thread mainly as an intellectual break at work, but also possiblly avoiding problems when the PC's start to wonder how a NPC can tumble past them so easily. What is good for the goose

 

[Jarrod]

I see Tumble as the movement version of casting defensively. In both cases they're simply denying an opponent an opening, not actively taking away something from the opponent (an AoO).

This parallel offers some interesting options: Tumble is relatively static for one person at 15, while casting defensively requires 15+spell level; however, tumble halves your movement. There are feats that prevent casting defensively (Mage Slayer), so I could easily see an equivalent feat for an opponent.

 

[Telas]

Thanks for the perceptive, yet entirely inaccurate analysis of my campaign, Sledge.

I guess I could have been more clear.

Almost all of my campaign's "big fights" are with a number of humanoids of mixed classes. The monks blow right through the front lines and engage the spellcasters. I've got no problem with that happening. As mentioned, it's what monks do.

The problem I do have is that they can do it for seven skill points, where it takes a Fighter two feats (Dodge + Mobility). After about 5th level, they stop buying points in a skill that is used in almost every combat. I haven't had a "Tumbling Rogue" in the campaign, so I can't speak to that (although a +10 to move isn't too uncommon).

As an aside: A +2 for subsequent Tumble checks really isn't that much (although it does add up). It takes the chance of a successful Tumble from a 85% to a 75%. Those are still good odds at not getting hit. The afore-mentioned Fighter only gets a +4 to AC (+5 if using Dodge). :\

What really brought it home to me was a fight I was in a few weeks ago as a player. My Barbarian was fighting a Fomorian Giant, and I was almost killed over AoOs (he'd hit and move away). Since he has a +21 to hit (can you tell I'm AD&D-reared?), that +4 Mobility bonus is nothing. A few ranks in Tumble, and I almost could have taken him single-handedly (OK, not really...).

Anyway, I think a Tumble that scales is a good idea. Yeah, I gripe when the Monks blow past the guards, but they rarely do any real damage to the casters (and are now in touch range ).

My real issues are the low cost for such a powerful ability, and the "constant DC".

Telas

 

[Sledge]

Are you sure you are doing your math right? You speak of "lines" which leads me to assume to do know what they are. In a closed room the line effect means you HAVE to go through the opponents (DC25). In an open area the monk can spend their full movement and go around the line (not tumbling). The only time you should have tumble at DC 15 come into play is in a loose formation where there is a 5 foot square between opponents (which is really about 8 feet apart) and the second line is still fairly close by. This is a situation where getting around is already easy. If your monk only uses it in easy situations then of course the monk won't be upping it. As characters increase in levels, their DCs don't simply increase, their actual challenges increase. For instance get a couple large baddies and some friends with reach for the front lines. Suddenly the monk has to roll 4 times to get through at 85% then 75% then 65% and finally 55%. Chances are the monk is going to come up with a different plan. As you said the monk is never particularly effective in this tactic anyway. If you really are getting sick of this stop putting the casters within 20 feet of the front lines. Someone that can blow people up at a 1000ft away has no business being so close up espescially with dimension door, telekinesis, fly etc...
As for the fighter sucking against reach. Either get a reach weapon, get enlarged, or fix* mobility. It isn't tumble's fault you almost died.

*Mobility is designed as a weak feat simply because of it leading to Spring attack as well as whirlwind. Perhaps too weak, but I'm not sure.

 

[Telas]

Are you sure you are doing your math right?

Yup, I got out before "new math" hit the schools.

You speak of "lines" which leads me to assume to do know what they are.

This old grunt (MOS 11M) is pretty familiar with most tactical terminology, yes.

However, most humanoids learn pretty quickly not to bunch up, especially when there's a spellcaster on the other side.

The only time you should have tumble at DC 15 come into play is in a loose formation where there is a 5 foot square between opponents (which is really about 8 feet apart) and the second line is still fairly close by.

From what I've seen on both sides of the screen, the "mixed battlefield" is the most common tactical situation.

As characters increase in levels, their DCs don't simply increase, their actual challenges increase.

True, and a lot of times that is expressed as increased DCs. Traps, concentration checks (as your spell levels go up, or as you take more damage per round), listen/spot checks, etc.

If you really are getting sick of this stop putting the casters within 20 feet of the front lines.

They're generally not that close, but next round, the Monk's wailing on them. Like I said, this part doesn't bother me that much, but the static DC and such a low cost is what gets me.

As for the fighter sucking against reach. Either get a reach weapon, get enlarged, or fix* mobility. It isn't tumble's fault you almost died.

I don't recall blaming it on Tumble. :\ I do recall stating that Tumble would have been, in that situation, one of the most powerful abilities in the game.

Back to my argument: Tumble is too powerful an ability to have a static DC. I'm going with DC(10 + BAB). Your mileage may vary (and apparently it does). Thanks for helping me to clarify my thoughts on the matter, and if we meet across the screen someday, we'll have this discussion again, and it will actually mean something then.

As a piece of free advice (and worth possibly nothing more than that): text has no "voice". Had I read your comments the right (wrong?) way, I could assume that you have questioned my campaign, my abilities at basic arithmetic, and my command of the English language. A smiley or self-deprecating comment or two doesn't hurt, and makes sure that your point gets taken in the best possible light.

Telas

 

[Felnar]

if you want the tumble DC to scale up, dont just add BAB to the tumble DC.
if you want an opposed check, why not just oppose tumble with sense motive?
(or make a whole new skill called "catch tumbler" (lame idea))

scaling against another skill, or with reflex save bonus perhaps, is a much better
balance than letting letting the "anti-tumbler" apply their BAB twice (once on
the tumble check DC, then again on the AoO)

 

[Kemrain]

In my game we say that tumble rolls are opposed by attack rolls, and tumbling through an opponent's square gives you a -5 penalty. Each opponent you have to tumble past adds an additional -2 penalty.

Mobility has been changed so that it gives you a +4 to your AC against all attacks of opportunity.

- Kemrain the Mobile.

 

[Sledge]

Telas I'm glad you did read it as intended. What I'm trying to explain is that when people try and stand 8+ feet apart it should be no surprise that someone managed to get past them. If you were trying to stop someone from getting by you would stand closer to your comrades. I'm still having trouble seeing what is actually being unbalancing. However I will concede that you seeing an imbalance for your games.

However I still do think the way you scale DC's will not do you well. At level one a basic tumbler will have a likely 7 (by your previous monk example) to their roll. This means they only need a 4 to succeed. At level 2 they will get the synergy and will automatically succeed. From that level on they automatically succeed against any equal BAB to level opponent so long as they invest in the skill. So yes it means they do have to keep investing. They will never have better that 50% chance of doing it at full speed however unless they up their dex and get feats. So you've given them the ability earlier at the cost of actually getting the skill ranks they should have in my opinion been picking up anyways. No real change to the game here except a few skill ranks at higher levels.
Meanwhile a cross class tumbler will at level 8 only have a +9 or so tumble, which gives him around a 50% chance of ever tumbling succesfully. This is basically a waste for the character.

If doing an opposed roll do it against another skill. Either balance or tumble itself spring to mind as the best choice.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

DC+BA vice Opposed Skill...

Sledge, I think you are missing a major point from most of the posters here...
To me, its not that Tumble is unbalanced and is destroying my game. Its that there is no reason for a character to invest into the ability beyond the initial cost. The system does not scale.

Your analysis of the DC 10+BAB method is right on. A Tumble focused character who spends the points to be good at it, will be good against CR equivilent encounters.

The cross-class tumbler wont be as good as the class tumbler, as they can be under the current static DC system. Instead they will be able to Tumble past the mooks.

Doing an opposed skill check is, IMHO, the worst way to go. Like a Tank Fighter is going to spend points on an 'anti-tumble' skill just to catch that annoying Monk. You end up with the result of Tumblers being stopped only by other Tumblers.

All in all, I have been sold on the DC 10+BAB variant. It scales, is easily calculated, and allows the characters to do *what monks do*

 

[silentspace]

I like tumble the way it is. It gives monks something to do so they don't feel completely useless (even if it doesn't change the rest of the party's views on them!). And rogues are stuck with that d6 so tumbling is risky for them.